The REAL fundamentals: part of fantasy setting design that I never even thought about

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Witness the distinctly minimal overlap between Thoros and Melisandre's abilities, despite both claiming to draw power from the same deity, which seems strongly likely to be the result of differing training considering that Mel studied in Asshai and Thoros didn't, and Mel shares some abilities with Shadowcasters who aren't R'hllor-cultists.

Both Thoros and Melisandre can raise the dead which is a pretty significant overlap. That said it's pretty clear their spells didn't start to work until after the dragons came back. The pyromancers are an interesting case since their abilities are only partly magical. They could always make their brand of Greek fire but mention to Tyrion that the process has inexplicably become a lot more efficient. So there's a pretty strong case for no gods, only magic.

[Polydamas]

I am also on the side of "does anyone in the setting know this? Then why should I as GM, let alone player, know it?" On the other hand, describing the cosmologies of characters in the setting can be fun.

[The Colonel]

I do like having "what actually happened" and "what everyone thinks happened", but have never managed to run a campaign far enough for anyone to notice the dissonance between the two.

[RogerBW]

To skew things slightly, I find that when I'm designing a space campaign it's really important to pin down early on how the space drives work. If hyperspace works like this then trade works like that and military actions work like that. That way I don't get unwelcome surprises later; the PCs may not care about how trade works, but it has to make sense if they do ever scratch the surface.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I do like having "what actually happened" and "what everyone thinks happened", but have never managed to run a campaign far enough for anyone to notice the dissonance between the two.

I would sure never tell a GM not to do something which they enjoy. There is a GM on this forum who has a setting with an underlying magic system which he uses to define how the different magic systems available to characters work.

Originally Posted by RogerBW

To skew things slightly, I find that when I'm designing a space campaign it's really important to pin down early on how the space drives work. If hyperspace works like this then trade works like that and military actions work like that. That way I don't get unwelcome surprises later; the PCs may not care about how trade works, but it has to make sense if they do ever scratch the surface.

And sketching out the supernatural can help make a fantasy setting feel real, especially if it includes things like "oaths of vengeance have power" (Ravenloft) or "the spirits of the underworld read messages written on a lead sheet and buried in a grave" (Roma Arcana).

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I would sure never tell a GM not to do something which they enjoy. There is a GM on this forum who has a setting with an underlying magic system which he uses to define how the different magic systems available to characters work.

And sketching out the supernatural can help make a fantasy setting feel real, especially if it includes things like "oaths of vengeance have power" (Ravenloft) or "the spirits of the underworld read messages written on a lead sheet and buried in a grave" (Roma Arcana).

Certainly - there's a huge list of questions that a setting designer needs to ask themselves before they introduce magic (although a somewhat shorter one if they're writing novels rather than RPG material).

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Have you seen such a level of setting design often? Because I've only found it in Exalted so far (published in Graceful Wicked Masques), and I get a feeling that something like that can be found in the mythologies of Buddhism and/or Hinduism.

It made me think of some of the Gnostic literature concerning the timeless wholeness of Godhood and the various sequential separations of various beings of power as they are further removed from the fullness of God, terminating with the Demiurge creating the physical universe in all its flawed imperfection (and then claiming he was God in his ignorance).

Luke

[ULFGARD]

Going deep -- the "squirreling" -- is a lot of fun. I can get lost there and never get around to designing a game world in which to run an actual campaign. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it isn't exactly useful to the gaming group as a whole.

However, deep knowledge of the cosmology isn't actually necessary to have a thoroughly fascinating game that feels deep. Understanding where things began is great, but in our own world we don't understand the deeper cosmology of the universe to the degree that most fictional cosmologies provide. Likewise, an average person (or even someone who is fairly educated) won't know or understand what we do know about the world.

The same goes for theology. Religions rarely have a simple, verifiable explanation of the world -- it tends to be more ephemeral, based in mystery that we poor human's just cannot understand. The great theologians often disagree on finer points, and if a religion lasts long enough, they may well end up disagreeing on some more significant points. All of these would be far beyond the knowledge or understanding of the average person.

For these reasons, I have started limiting myself to an underlying set of assumptions based on what N/PCs and organizations are likely to interact with in the world. So deities, magic, etc., should have some consistent basis game mechanically, though it need not be apparent to the PCs (until those abilities are available to them).

For example, in a Viking fantasy game I ran, Christians and Jews relied on miracles for their "magic." Pagan priests used something akin to Ritual/Path magic, etc. Was there a common cosmology? Not really. I tried to find supernatural abilities that most closely suited the cultures and religions. I ran the campaign as an agnostic about how / why these things worked -- it was a mystery. Christians would claim that pagan magic was powered by the devil. Pagans might well consider Christian and Jewish miracles to be just another form of god-powered actions.

So it seems to me that a deep understanding of the workings of the universe can be detrimental just as easily as it can be foundational. In my experience, the players haven't cared much, so long as things worked in predictable ways.

[Phantasm]

What I tend to do is lay out "okay, here's how it is now" in the setting document, then toss out a few bits of history in appropriate sections, keeping those parts to at most half a page each.

Me: "The nations of Marach and Ritaegno are rivals and have a history of warfare between them. Things are heating up and threatening to spark another war. You..."

Player 1: "Why the rivalry?"

Me: "Short version: They're the last two remnants of the now-defunct Great Empire, and both wish to reforge the Empire. However, like the Hatfields and McCoys, the rivalry dates back to before living memory, and no one's sure how it started or why they're fighting. The Third War of Succession is ... well, it'd be like our Desert Storm in how long ago it was."

Player 2: "Sounds cool. Which nation are we in and what are we up to?"

Sometimes a bit of short-term history makes things seem a bit more real, but long-term history going back centuries or millennia isn't always suitable, unless it directly impacts the game. Even then, you can always hand the information to those players whose characters make the appropriate History rolls when it becomes relevant.

[ak_aramis]

Yes, I usually have a cosmology. No, i don't go that far down the rabbit hole, but I know when the various races arose. (My current fantasy game world doesn't explain where the races originated, but does note that they were imported from other places...)