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Old 04-13-2006, 11:46 AM   #41
kpram
 
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie the Technomancer
Sorry, I still don't see a good reason. An archer already has to be stationary to fire, otherwise they get a penalty. And the fact that you're AoAing doesn't make the target stop moving, or change its distance. So why should we apply a Task Difficulty Modifier of +3?

+4 for melee AoA is justifiable by swinging faster, stronger and more unpredictably than usual, without any concern for your defense. Apart from the "no defense" part, none of that apply when you're shooting a ranged weapon.

If you want to shoot somebody from afar, buy Zen Archery 22 and shoot away! :)
AoA Determined isn't hitting harder, that is AoA Strong. It isn't more unpredictable, that is Deceptive Attack.

So the only difference between shooting a bow while making an acrobatic dodge and shooting a bow while standing still is +1? Are you assuming aim bonuses and bracing that aren't mentioned? Or is there some other penalty to ranged attacks used with active defenses that I don't recall.

In general, the +1 for AoA Determined at range is a bad bargin unless you know for certain the enemy can't attack you. The bonus to hit is grossly outweighed by the loss of even an 8- dodge.

Admittedly, not dodging allows other things to come into play (aim, bracing, etc), but giving up your dodge is not a small thing. I find Luther's suggestion to unify AoA Determined for ranged and melee combat compelling in real world terms, and easier in play, since it reduces the number of rules needed.
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:48 AM   #42
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Aside from the bad effects which the higher AoA bonus would have on TL5+ gun combat, Luther, perhaps one could argue that an AoA is almost the default for ranged attacks? Most people don't try to dodge while shooting. In that case the different bonus would be explained by the common principle in GURPS that one unit of good stuff costs more points than one point of bad stuff gives. eg. skill penalties, limitations on traits, many advantages with parallel good and bad versions.

I also agree with what others have said: there are simply more ways to modify a melee attack at the cost of defence than there are a ranged attack.
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:58 AM   #43
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Several options in the upcoming Martial Arts will make archers more useful in one-on-one situations. Most are campaign options -- optional combat rules -- and not things that will cost archers additional points. Please hang in there . . .
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
Kromm mentioned that on the range an archer would get +4/+5, why? Because he is calm and do not feel threatened, hence can fully concentrate on the shot.
Not feeling threatened, because you're on a peaceful archery range is quite different from overcoming your fear to steady your shot in real combat.

Quote:
So it is possible to improve your odds with missile weapons by focusing solely on the attack, and GURPS already supports this.
Yes, with All-Out-Attack, and Aim.

Quote:
However for some strange reason if you forfeit defenses with a melee weapon you get +4, with a missile one you get +1.
For the same reason you gon't get an accuracy bonus for Evaluating in Melee.

AOA with a melee weapon isn't just concentrated aiming. It is swinging your weapon haphazardly, "Dropping your guard", and opening yourself up to your oponent. You are swinging determinedly, and ignoring any blows coming back at you.

With a Missile weapon, you have to stand still to fire in the first place. You don't have that much mobility to give up, in the first plaace. There's not much more you can do, besides take more time to Aim.

I am an archer as well. I also do archery in Amtgard (a Live-Action, fantasy combat group. Kinda like the SCA but with padded weapons). You have no control over a missile, once you fire (unless you'te telekinetic). You can "guide" a sword into the opponet's gut. You can't with an arrow. Once you release it, it's gone. I honestly think a +1 is about all the benefit you're going to get, without taking time to aim.

Melee combat has more control over the striking part of the weapon, and thus gets a better bonus for AOA, but gets less return from Evaluate. Missile combat is exactly the opposite. It has the luxury of getting the weapon's Acc bonuses for Aiming, but gets less return from AOA, due to loss of control after firing.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:08 PM   #45
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJA
Let´s try to make an archer - Fantasy has such a basic version:

DX 12
Striking ST +2
Bow-14
Fast Draw (Arrow)-14

Thrusting damage based on ST 12 is 1d-1

The bow used is a Long Bow:
Long: thr+2, Acc 3

So, we get thr-damage of 1d+1 or 4.5

Even if an opponent is not armored, we need at least 2 hits to cripple a limb or make some serious damage - only a hit to the vitals seems to be better.

Skill-14:

Turn 1: Fast Draw Arrow, Ready Bow
Turn 2: Aim, Skill-17
Turn 3: Aim, Skill-18
Turn 4: Aim, Skill-19
Turn 5: All-out-Attack (Determined), Skill-20

Reducing this by 3 for an attack to the vitals, we get effective Skill-17.

If we want a *sure* hit (Skill-16), we can now only attack at a range of 3 yards!
So, we need to reduce more: Skill-14 allows for an attack at 7 yards.
Very short range, so we reduce more to Skill-12 for an possible range of 15 yards. Still not much ...

So, now we have:

After 5 turns, we can attack an charging opponent at 15 yards.
In that 5 turns, the opponent can come closer 20, 25 or 30 yards (at Move 4, 5 ot 6) or more (if running), so we started our fight at a range of 35, 40 or 45 yards.

The archer will get *one* shot and the opponent can defend with a shield:
Skill-14 gives a Block of 10, maybe 11 with Combat Reflexes - so our archer will only be effective half the time - at most!

Very bad odds for such an archer, or not?
Did i do something wrong?
Well, have a look.

You have skill 14, Strenght 12. Your Bow have Acc3 and doing 1d+1 imp.
Your Foe have move 5.

Starting 50yards apart.

Archer 1: FD Arow, Ready Bow.
Foe 1: Move 5.

Archer 2: Aim.
Foe 2: Move 6.

Archer 3: Fire AOA:Determined. Skill 14+3+1, range 39 = -8, Efective skill 10.
Foe 3: Move 6.

Archer 4: FD Arow, Ready Bow.
Foe 4: Move 6.

Archer 5: Aim.
Foe 5: Move 6.

Archer 6: Fire AOA:Determined. Skill 14+3+1, range 21 = -6, Efective skill 12.
Foe 6: Move 6.

Archer 7: FD Arow, Ready Bow.
Foe 7: Move 6.

Archer 8: Aim.
Foe 8: Move 6.

Archer 9: Fire Attack. Skill 14+3, range 3 = -1, Efective skill 16.
Foe 9: AOA.

With 1d+1 imp damage, even one succesfull hit will do enough damage to cause 1/2move 1/2dodge.
This will further increase time Archer have.
When Archer manage two hits (or have little luck and roll 5 or 6 on damage of first hit) he will put ordinary Foe under 0.

This is not so bad. I would not call Archer without chances.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:10 PM   #46
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas
Aside from the bad effects which the higher AoA bonus would have on TL5+ gun combat, Luther, perhaps one could argue that an AoA is almost the default for ranged attacks? Most people don't try to dodge while shooting. In that case the different bonus would be explained by the common principle in GURPS that one unit of good stuff costs more points than one point of bad stuff gives. eg. skill penalties, limitations on traits, many advantages with parallel good and bad versions.

I also agree with what others have said: there are simply more ways to modify a melee attack at the cost of defence than there are a ranged attack.
In any situation where guns are present, except maybe sniper attacks from ambush, AoA Determined +1 is a bad bet. The loss of dodge against return fire is not worth +1 to hit, even if you are "certain" the enemy hasn't got any guns.

Assuming, for a minute, that the AoA Dert. +4 is in use, how should you handle it where the loss of dodge isn't actually changing much? eg, when the attacker is prone already? For melee attacks, there is a penalty for being prone, which AoA Drt can compensate for, but I recall prone giving a bonus (no to bows, the orignal subject of the thread, though).

Hmm. I suspect "Ranged AoA Determined +1 or +4" might deserve its own thread, perhaps generalized to "Unifying ranged and melee combat rules"
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:40 PM   #47
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Several options in the upcoming Martial Arts will make archers more useful in one-on-one situations. Most are campaign options -- optional combat rules -- and not things that will cost archers additional points. Please hang in there . . .
Damn Kromm! Stop Teasing!

I need MA RIGHT NOW ;)
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:20 PM   #48
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Note that skill 14 and 1d+1 damage is pretty lame for a fantasy warrior. I routinely see skill-18 warriors with damages in the 2d range in pure fantasy, where fighters mainly worry about fightin'. I'd expect something more like this:

ST 11 [10]; DX 13 [60]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20].
Damage 1d-1/1d+1; BL 24 lbs.; HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 13 [15]; FP 12 [0].
Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]; Basic Move 7 [5]; Dodge 9; Parry 10; Block 10.

Advantages: Acute Vision +4 [8]; Cultural Familiarity (Elvish) [1]; Signature Gear (Composite Bow) [2]; Weapon Master (Bow) [20].

Perks: Weapon Bond (Composite Bow) [1].

Disadvantages: Campaign- and personality-specific traits worth -40 points. [-40]

Quirks: Personality-specific traits worth -5 points. [-5]

Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Missile Weapons)-12 [8]; Bow-18 [20]; Brawling-14 [2]; Camouflage-12 [4]; Fast-Draw (Arrow)-14 [2]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-13 [1]; Hiking-12 [2]; Observation-12 [1]; Running-12 [2]; Shield (Buckler)-14 [2]; Shortsword-14 [4]; Stealth-14 [4]; Survival (Woodlands)-12 [1]; Tracking-12 [1]; Wrestling-14 [4].

Equipment: Composite Bow (SG; 4 lbs.); Fine Bodkin Arrows x20 ($120; 2 lbs.); Hip Quiver ($15; 1 lb.); Leather Arms, Boots, Gloves, Helm, Legs, and Torso (DR 2; $340; 19.5 lbs.); Medium Buckler (DB 2; $60; 15 lbs.); Shortsword ($400; 2 lbs.). Total Cost: $935; Total Weight: 43.5 lbs., or Light Encumbrance.
His damage is thr+3 with a composite bow, for a basic 1d+2, but he adds +2 for Weapon Master and +1 for fine arrows, for 1d+5. These are bodkins, so damage is 1d+5(2) pi. He doesn't care about piercing vs. impaling, because he aims for the vitals and both damage types get x3 there. He'd shoot at skill 18, +3 Acc, +1 for Weapon Bond, or a base 22 on aimed shots. Aiming for the vitals (-3), he'd have good odds out to 70 yards. If he hits plate armor (DR 6), it'll be treated as DR 3 for the bodkin. His damage roll will be from 6 to 11. After DR, that will be from 3 to 8. Tripled to the vitals gives from 9 to 24. A low-damage hit will be a major wound to the vitals, and likely drop the target. A high-damage hit is likely lethal to a HT 10-11 man. Average damage means incapacity.

That's what I'd consider a "first level" fantasy archer. A better archer would have up to seven more levels of skill so that he could aim at chinks in armor over the vitals (-10) or at the eyes (-10); he'd have ST 13 to 15 for more damage; he'd have Combat Reflexes to aid Fast-Draw and defenses; he's have Basic Move 9 or so for maneuvering; he'd learn Zen Archery; and he'd have far better signature gear, probably a fine, magical bow and magical arrows.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:38 PM   #49
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Weapon Bond (Composite Bow) [1].
I can not recall that from the rules. MA? Or di I miss it?

Whow, powerfull dude. If that is your first level archer, what the heck is a master?
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:47 PM   #50
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thona
I can not recall that from the rules. MA? Or di I miss it?
Weapon Bond is on p. 132 of Fantasy.
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