08-07-2012, 02:02 AM | #41 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Germany, Leonberg
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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My big problem with feint is that I'm unable to come up with a character that is able to consistently beat a feint fighter without investing into and/or using feints himself. That five points just seem so universally useful I don't see a reason not to spent them. I do know that this sounds a bit like "Hey, I want a fighter that doesn't use attack to win fights" but the statement is more akin to "I want a fighter that is able to win without using defensive attacks". This dislike for feint as a universally useful tactic is ultimately rooted in the impressions I got out of reading MA, doing some fencing in my youth and watching some fighting with eyes open. Take (olympic) fencing for example. In the fights that I've seen lately there were only very rarely moves that I would classify as something like a feint. I've seen lot's of deceptive attacks, some counterattacks, some ripostes but feints were the exception not the rule. The same is true for other sports I watched lately (with different techniques used instead, of course). This is kind of a double argument. I think the universality of the technique fails the reality check and it is, rules wise, something I think is disagreeable - believing in the dogma that more options is virtually always better than fewer options. |
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08-07-2012, 05:02 AM | #42 | |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Athens of America
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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1. If the other side has ONE tank/fencer/mage/etc that is a problem...thats where I like to use teamwork to beat them into the pavement... 2. If you do not want to deal with the tedium of melee dancing..you could go outside the box with Heroic Archer or WM Bow or both...and shoot the boy from 15 hexes away... Seldom seen too many builds with 5 points invested in Feint Tech...usually Feint IME has just been used off of flat skill by a skilled fighter to degrade the defenses of a lesser skilled target (ie Broadsword + Big Shield) to set the kill...
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My center is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I shall attack.-Foch America is not perfect, but I will hold her hand until she gets well.-unk Tuskegee Airman |
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08-07-2012, 05:12 AM | #43 | |
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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Maybe you can force players to build their special ability into a poorer combat maneuver? Something dominating, like AoA to teleport your opponent into the dragon's lair. Instead of rolling for damage, you roll for succeeding the spell. My suggestion is invalid because I haven't bought Gurps' Martial Art. But I just want to throw the idea out there for someone who's more experienced at combat customization. Last edited by Deadite; 08-07-2012 at 05:16 AM. |
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08-07-2012, 07:51 AM | #44 | |||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Medford, MA
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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My character's parries were regularly at least 17, and since I was dual wielding and a Weapon Master fencer, my defenses stayed really high for multiple defenses. So I your mind people should have been feinting me all the time...but I had a really high skill, so if you fainted me, even if you had the feint technique, you may not beat me, and even if you did beat me, on average, you wouldn't beat me by much...usually between 2-4, which is going to waste one of your attacks for inconsistent benefit that is probably not going to be enough to make me miss my defense. People who went up against my fighter, rather than feinting, instead did things they knew would be effective...stacking techniques to get massive to hit bonuses which they'd then sink into a really major deceptive attack, or an insane number of rapid strikes...or really heavy weapons that I couldn't parry, etc. Feint is good sometimes, and some people used it to great effect, but again, my character was the longest lasting one of a very brutal arena game, and I didn't even have the Feint technique until near the very end. Quote:
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Anyhow, based on my experience in a very long running Arena game, and having the longest surviving PC, who was also the top ranked fighter in the end, who didn't even get the Feint technique until shortly before that PC was killed, Feint isn't the end all be all. Also, while we saw feint in the arena (but again, not as a dominant force), in the games I've run or played in that were regular campaigns not consisting of arena combat, feints rarely come up. |
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08-07-2012, 07:54 AM | #45 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Medford, MA
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
If you gave me a special ability that was tied into an AoA, I most likely wouldn't use the maneuver. Because after that AoA I have no defenses, and no defenses often means death. So, I rather stick with attacks that won't get me killed if my foe resists or defends.
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08-07-2012, 10:42 AM | #46 |
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Germany, Leonberg
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
Let me compliment my argument about the fencers with some math (probabilities taken from here ):
Assume two fighters. One (F) has invested five points into feint and the other (C) invested the same amount into counterattack. I'm assuming equal stats on everything else and a base skill of 16 in Saber Sport. F: Saber Sport 16, Parry 11, Feint (Saber Sport) 20, C: Saber Sport 16, Parry 11, Counterattack (Saber Sport) 15 Available options (with realism mode to the max): Retreat gives +3, AoD +2, Defensive Attack +1. The chance for a MoV of y or more when feinting for F is: Sum over x: (chance for F to roll exactly x * chance for C to roll x+y-4 or more (-4 for lower feint technique) or more). Did this with Libreoffice Calc and came to the following results: MoV Prob >0 85% >1 79% >2 72% >3 63% >4 54% >5 45% >6 36% ... This seems a bit high to me but neither I nor my friend can spot any mistake so I guess the numbers are correct. If they are feint is even stronger than I feared... I mean this says that you can reduce the defense of an equally skilled fighter by 6 or more with 40% of the feints. |
08-07-2012, 10:47 AM | #47 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
In one one one duels against equal skilled opponents that may be true. Against weaker foes, straight up weapon skill is usually better, because feint costs a turn and if you're approaching a 50% hit probability without feinting, feint isn't worth the trouble.
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08-07-2012, 10:54 AM | #48 | |
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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Last edited by roguebfl; 08-08-2012 at 07:41 AM. Reason: fixing quote tag |
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08-07-2012, 11:46 AM | #49 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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On the other hand, if one has significantly more skill than the other, it may be that neither gains much from feint. The weaker one isn't going to succeed in their own feints, of course. The stronger one likely doesn't need to feint, and if they did they might not need the extra benefit. (Unless they were up against a weaker opponent who did invest in Feint, of course.) This might not happen in an arena battle (unless the low-skill fighter has some radical alternate approach going on which may invalidate the feint approach) but it could happen quite a lot in adventuring situations...with adventurers on either side. Or, for another way to invest those 5 points from parity: 4 points to take Flail instead of your Average weapon skill of choice, and 1 point for Shield Wall Training. Your morningstar will nicely muck up a parry-oriented opponent, especially if they're a fencer, while your large shield helps resist any feint-enhanced attacks.
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
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08-07-2012, 12:40 PM | #50 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Medford, MA
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Re: Feints dominating fights?
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Let's ignore DWA for a moment--which could seriously mess up your Feinter and look at the more skill guy. F: Saber Sport 16, Parry 11, Feint (Saber Sport) 20, S: Saber Sport 18, Parry 12 (Base Skill 17 +1 for Weapon Bond). If they both make average rolls, the Feint guy is going to be able to reduce the Skill Guy's defense by 2. But it means giving up a turn every other turn. And that Skill guy's defense only goes down to 10, that is before the +3 for retreating. When Skill guy retreats, his defense is a 13...which is going to be hard to get through. The skill guy on the other hand, can lower his foe's base defense to 10, every turn with no rolls needed just by doing a -2/-1 Defensive attack...still leaving him with a 16 Skill roll. Also, since the two fighters are the same, it is up in the air who goes first. If the non-Feinter goes first and hits the Feint guy, that feint guy will have shock penalties that will negatively impact his ability to feint. And if he chooses to feint anyway (because he is crazy wedded to his technique), then the non-Feint guy gets another attack on him before the Feint guy will be able to respond. If the feint guy goes first and chooses to feint, the non-feint guy still gets to hit him first messing up his feinting ability. I don't think you can just look at probabilities in absence things like Shock penalties, who goes first, etc. |
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combat rules, feints |
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