Feints dominating fights?

[Mailanka]

You know, Makke, you seem convinced that Feint is, in fact, a problem. Let's not argue about whether or not that's true. Let's take it for granted that it's "too good," and that people use it "too often," by your measure of too often.

How would we fix it? How would we introduce more variety into combat? Should we just remove Feint, or is there a way to keep its value in combat without making it so all-dominating (Perhaps, say, feints are worth less, but you can stack them up over time, or perhaps feints can go both ways and if your opponent sees through your feint, gains a bonus, making it riskier (which would make my evaluate strategy MUCH more valuable since it better ensures success))?

I don't think this "Feints: Threat or Menace?" discussion is getting anywhere, so let's discuss the hypotheticals of how we might fix the problem. That will require outlining the problem, which might reveal some interesting things about the situation.

[Deadite]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Deceptive Attack IS in your basic set (B369). The rest is in Martial Arts, which is your go-to book if you want more detail and nuance to your melee combat.

It definitely sounds like something I really need. I'm glad there's GURPS books that covers this. Branches out the combat step.

[Kuroshima]

Sorry Malanka if I ended up being a little too defensive of my opinions.

Feint is another piece of the puzzle. Is it an important piece? IMHO, it is. Is it too strong? maybe, but I have no idea on how to fix it without crippling it. Feints are not worth it unless you have something else to capitalize on the effect. As such, they go from worthless to awesome in the blink of an eye, depending on how much you can take advantage of their use. Perhaps forbidding the technique? that will curb feints without completely neutering them. However, it does not sit well by me. Maybe restricting the feint to skill+2, increasable to skill+4 via technique mastery? That can work.

[Deadite]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I don't think this "Feints: Threat or Menace?" discussion is getting anywhere, so let's discuss the hypotheticals of how we might fix the problem. That will require outlining the problem, which might reveal some interesting things about the situation.

Hypotheticals, in a straight up fight between 2 players, a player can have weaker Feint but be better at _______? And _____ would benefit his battle against the other player how?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Deadite

Hypotheticals, in a straight up fight between 2 players, a player can have weaker Feint but be better at _______? And _____ would benefit his battle against the other player how?

Well, the very simplest possibility would be spending the same points on extra skill instead. They can use the extra skill for better Deceptive Attacks which they can throw every turn rather than alternating with feints. (Feint hopefully beats this, since extra skill is more generally applicable.)

A radical and narrow but interesting option is to try to invalidate your opponent's preferred combat mode by grappling them. This is full of failure modes but if you do get a good grip on someone who specialized in fencing, you can proceed to unscrew their head and/or arms more or less at will.

Could specialize in disarming instead. Dunno how well that stands up but it does bypass certain defenses really well. Armor, particularly. And there are weapons that give bonuses to disarming.

Could drop the points on Dual Weapon Attack instead (in a cinematic game, at least) and plan on beating the opponent's second-best defense instead of their best.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

A radical and narrow but interesting option is to try to invalidate your opponent's preferred combat mode by grappling them. This is full of failure modes but if you do get a good grip on someone who specialized in fencing, you can proceed to unscrew their head and/or arms more or less at will.

A Good Point...however a fencer build should have a good move to control the range and should often be engaging at range 2. (They 'often' are in light or no encumberence so a move of 7-8-9 is not difficult to manage)

Using that build my own self one of my favorite things to say in combat is "Defense X and Retreat" often not as much for the bonus, but for the hex of seperation. Then I will often Attack and then Step (Away)...The best defense against a Melee Attack in GURPS is to be too far away from the aggressor for him to attack in the first place.

That being said if the tanking fighter type does manage to grapple the fencer the fencer is in trouble...

[Deadite]

I like the disarming option a lot. I can use magic to whisper a spell, player will drop his readied weapon. Since the other player's feinting is rely on the skill points he invested in, let's say fencing, without his Stinger, he lose the advantage with his Feint.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Deadite

Hypotheticals, in a straight up fight between 2 players, a player can have weaker Feint but be better at _______? And _____ would benefit his battle against the other player how?

1) Get the book Martial Arts...if you are wanting to do a dueling campaign this will be invaluable.
2) You are looking for universals...and so much is individual and dependent on situations.

For example, in that arena game my fighter was a dual weapon fencer. So the techniques I focused on were Dual Weapon Attack, Counterattack, and Disarm...much later I was finally able to get Flying Lunge.

Other fighters focused on Feint and Rapid Striking.
This one fighter focused on Hand Clap Parry and was really effective.
We had a very, very scary Ogre with a Staff who would stack Spinning attack with Low Fighting.

I can't say, Person A has Feint so Person B should do Y. If Person B is a mobile fencer that is one thing, if Person B is a Giant that is another.

Here is my advice, if this is PvP, let your players fight. They will discover things on their own. They will get different variations on their own.

Even the same build can end up doing different things. For example, Witchking's fencer would maneuver to stay out of range...my fencer had a different strategy. I'd stay at 1 hex away, and instead of retreating back, I'd Sideslip to their weapon side. Then for my attack I'd step to their read and attack them from behind...negating their Shield bonus. Feint is a way to reduce defenses, I reduced defenses through positioning, dual weapon attack, deceptive attack, and counterattacking. Other fighters did other things.

I learned a lot from being in that game for the year or two it went on, I'd say that you should just let you players learn. Someone will come up with something that seems unbeatable, and then someone else will beat it.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by trooper6

1) Get the book Martial Arts...if you are wanting to do a dueling campaign this will be invaluable.

I absolutely agree. When you played in Salle d'Armes, a campaign largely focused on dueling, I started out by reading through everything the book had to say about fencing, and everything it had to say about the options listed for fencing, and making up a multipage cheat sheet outlining all of this. And then I planned the campaign to give the players a chance to try out their difference skill levels and tactical options. I was very happy with the result. MA gives a really strong sense not just of tactics, but of tactics as drama.

Bill Stoddard

[pieclone]

For my planned MMA campaign (starting as soon as Technical Grappling is out...) I have a whole bunch of ideas to stop the tedium of Feints. My game will have a fair amount of points variation between competitors but I will absolutely punish any player that does the same thing each fight. Other competitors can watch your video footage (good for negating style familiarity penalties and maybe even giving a +1 to defend against Combinations that you often use) and if they keep throwing the same Feint followed by a takedown attempt I will ensure that their greeting is a knee to the jaw.

I also like the idea of using a Shane Carwin-style "GLF" fighter whose constant offensive pressure means most players will either try to retreat or cover up. He might be gassed out at the end of round one but most fights won't last that long. I have many evils plans to make my players rise to the top as memorable as possible.

In summary - Technical Grappling this week please!