[MA] 'Tactical Counters' for other tactics/Manoeuvres/Techniques?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Braun

I know this probably will not help the issue, but here is a tactical wheel for fencing....

http://www.lindajdunn.com/fencing/TacticalWheel.html

Greetings, all!

This short article provided a simplistic overview of tactical counters. And simplistic they may be, but they are about the appropriate level of complexity for an RPG. Yes, I know the article is Fencing-specific, which is why I wouldn't expect to adopt it wholly into GURPS. But it still got me wondering:

In real life, there are no superior techniques/manoeuvres, as each has a weak side, and is vulnerable to a certain set of counters. But if they are part of GURPS Martial Arts, I haven't seen them, almost at all. Sure, there are some risky choices which have a noticeable vulnerability, such as All-Out Attack being vulnerable to Telegraphic Attacks. But mostly, there's nothing you can actually do to be better off against a certain type of behavior. Here's what I mean:

• If an opponent decides to Dual-Attack, there's just nothing I can do once I notice this to make double-attacking less advantageous.
• If I know that my opponent will target the Vitals and I have a Shield, I nonetheless cannot choose to keep it over my vitals, sacrificing protection of other locations.
• So my opponent likes do Deceptive-Attack; what can I do to be more 'on alert' against such tricks? Other than going All-Out Defense and eventually losing anyway.
• Opponent can afford two attacks (DWA or EA), and always uses one of them on a Defensive Feint to make hitting him harder. What can I do to make his defense-booster less effective - while in combat, not by spending weeks on the Feint technique.

If somebody knows what can be done about it (e.g. what am I missing), please speak up.
Thanks in advance!

[aesir23]

I study Hsing-I, (but I'm very new at it), and I recently learned that the 5 Element techniques defeat each other in a Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock fashion:

Fire shapes Metal,
Water quenches Fire,
Earth limits Water,
Water controls Wood,
Metal splits Wood,
ad infinitum...

It's not exactly what you're talking about, all of these techniques can be used as either a Parry and Counterattack, or a Beat and Attack, some with varying levels of deceptiveness; but they're all specifically designed to counter each other.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I study Hsing-I, (but I'm very new at it), and I recently learned that the 5 Element techniques defeat each other in a Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock fashion:

Fire shapes Metal,
Water quenches Fire,
Earth limits Water,
Water controls Wood,
Metal splits Wood,
ad infinitum...

It's not exactly what you're talking about, all of these techniques can be used as either a Parry and Counterattack, or a Beat and Attack, some with varying levels of deceptiveness; but they're all specifically designed to counter each other.

No offense, but what does any of that mean? What is fire or metal?

[aesir23]

I think there is a little of this in GURPS now, Defensive Attack against an opponent who likes to Counterattack, FREX, or the Martial Arts variation of Reputation that would give you a bonus to defend against the guy who attacks the vitals too often, or the Rapid Retraction perk as protection against Arm Lock and Leg Grab, Leg Grab against powerful Kicks, Counterattack against Committed Attack, and Evade against Trip, etc....

I'd be in favor of inventing new techniques and style perks as counters to others that aren't available.

Deceptive Attack we have to leave alone, I think, it needs to exist unmolested so that highly skilled fighters can occasionally hit each other (although Style Familiarity does offer some protection, and doesn't Evaluate help too, IDHMBWM?).

If I was facing an opponent with a higher skill who feinted or attacked deceptively all the time, I might just try AoA (Double). Perhaps, if I can't block him, I can keep him on the defensive.

[Anaraxes]

Hsing-I is a Chinese martial art. Apparently it gets inspiration from the five traditional Chinese elements (earth, metal, wood, water, fire) and the twelve animals (dragon, monkey, horse, snake, etc), not to be confused with Kung Fu Panda.

Apparently aesir23 is saying that the various elemental techniques of this art are considered to dominate another one, yet also be vulnerable to a different one, as in the rock-paper-scissors game.

what can I do to be more 'on alert' against such tricks

If you're fighting for your life, I assume you're as alert as you're going to get. You could be more "defensive" (Defensive Attack or AoD). But if you could just declare "I'm more alert now" and get bonuses to defense, why wouldn't you do that all the time? That's presumably the default state that you're in without having to declare anything.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

No offense, but what does any of that mean? What is fire or metal?

None taken. The 5 elements are the basic body of techniques in the Chinese martial art Hsing-I. They are usually followed by training in the 12 animal forms.

Fire is a high parry and simultaneous straight punch, Water involves pulling the opponents arm down with one hand and delivering an uppercut with the other, etc... This is a gross simplification, of course, and each element has several applications. Like I said, I'm very new to Hsing-I, most of my previous training has been in Wing Chun and Bajiquan.

I brought it up, because the tactical wheel in the OP seemed very similar, every move has a counter and there's a counter for every move.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I think there is a little of this in GURPS now, Defensive Attack against an opponent who likes to Counterattack, FREX, or the Martial Arts variation of Reputation that would give you a bonus to defend against the guy who attacks the vitals too often, or the Rapid Retraction perk as protection against Arm Lock and Leg Grab, Leg Grab against powerful Kicks, Counterattack against Committed Attack, and Evade against Trip, etc....

I'd be in favor of inventing new techniques and style perks as counters to others that aren't available.

Most of those things are traits you train/buy when you have the time. I'm talking about adaptations mid-combat. Like changing tactics.

[giganerds]

Hi folks. First of all, I liked the aesir analogy.

Originally Posted by Molokh

• If an opponent decides to Dual-Attack, there's just nothing I can do once I notice this to make double-attacking less advantageous.

I'm not quite if I undestand what you said.
The counter techniques to a Dual-Weapon Attack is a Dual-Weapon Deffence (Ma83, just bellow the first), this helps.
Try severing on of his limbs.

• If I know that my opponent will target the Vitals and I have a Shield, I nonetheless cannot choose to keep it over my vitals, sacrificing protection of other locations.

Old MA has an option to guard a specific hit location in detrimental of other. I don't remember exactly the rule but it was something like +1 to Active defences against attacks to that hit location while getting -2 for the others.
I don't remember to see it in the MA 4th, but it's a huge book, and I may pass through the rule without notice it. Correct me if I wrong.

• So my opponent likes do Deceptive-Attack; what can I do to be more 'on alert' against such tricks? Other than going All-Out Defense and eventually losing anyway.

DA is a good idea in 4e because it give to the very skilled character to be really sure he/she is getting a good reward from spent points in combat skills. I love it.

To offset a DA, IMHO, take a high skill or a lot of bonuses defenses. The attacker is already taking a penalty, so either he is giving up a particular useful target (hit location) or dimming its chances to hit (down the skill bellow 16... often, he could be a 30 skill level warrior, but does how many of this combat monster we encounter?).

• Opponent can afford two attacks (DWA or EA), and always uses one of them on a Defensive Feint to make hitting him harder. What can I do to make his defense-booster less effective - while in combat, not by spending weeks on the Feint technique.

Nice trick, I didn't pay attention on this.

Defensive feint, like any feint, is a quick contest. Against high skill, raising the Feint technique to maximum or investing in the attributes to resist to it (ST for beats, Per for Ruses and DX for all other) is the best course, reducing the sucefull feints.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by giganerds

Hi folks. First of all, I liked the aesir analogy.


I'm not quite if I undestand what you said.
The counter techniques to a Dual-Weapon Attack is a Dual-Weapon Deffence (Ma83, just bellow the first), this helps.
Try severing on of his limbs.

DWA can be used untrained, but DWD is mostly about ignoring the -1 to defenses from DWA. I'm asking what to do when you notice your opponent constantly DWA's.

Originally Posted by giganerds

Old MA has an option to guard a specific hit location in detrimental of other. I don't remember exactly the rule but it was something like +1 to Active defences against attacks to that hit location while getting -2 for the others.
I don't remember to see it in the MA 4th, but it's a huge book, and I may pass through the rule without notice it. Correct me if I wrong.

Haven't seen it in 4e either. :(
Kinda weird, too.

Originally Posted by giganerds

DA is a good idea in 4e because it give to the very skilled character to be really sure he/she is getting a good reward from spent points in combat skills. I love it.

To offset a DA, IMHO, take a high skill or a lot of bonuses defenses. The attacker is already taking a penalty, so either he is giving up a particular useful target (hit location) or dimming its chances to hit (down the skill bellow 16... often, he could be a 30 skill level warrior, but does how many of this combat monster we encounter?).

I absolutely support the existence of DA. However, the problem is that properly choosing the DA number can be used to counter high defenses in such a way as to increase the overall chance to hit (this mostly happens at skill levels above 14), but there is no equivalent for the defender - at most, she can declare a Defensive Attack or All-Out Defense, both of which are ultimately losing strategies unless someone backs you up.

Originally Posted by giganerds

Nice trick, I didn't pay attention on this.

Defensive feint, like any feint, is a quick contest. Against high skill, raising the Feint technique to maximum or investing in the attributes to resist to it (ST for beats, Per for Ruses and DX for all other) is the best course, reducing the sucefull feints.

Yes, but what about choosing the proper course of action when you know you're often under the effects of such a Feint? What to do with him when the combat has already started (as opposed to, say, a jumpy Move-and-Attacker or a slow-but-sure bruiser etc.)?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Molokh

I absolutely support the existence of DA. However, the problem is that properly choosing the DA number can be used to counter high defenses in such a way as to increase the overall chance to hit (this mostly happens at skill levels above 14), but there is no equivalent for the defender - at most, she can declare a Defensive Attack or All-Out Defense, both of which are ultimately losing strategies unless someone backs you up.

What would an equivalent for the defender be? DA allows the attacker to trade off between the two rolls a successful attack requires. The defender doesn't have anything equivalent to deal with, unless you think they should be able to modify the attacker's roll somehow.

Originally Posted by Molokh

Yes, but what about choosing the proper course of action when you know you're often under the effects of such a Feint? What to do with him when the combat has already started (as opposed to, say, a jumpy Move-and-Attacker or a slow-but-sure bruiser etc.)?

Don't use much deceptive attack, I guess...maybe fight defensively until you catch him trying to feint, which means he failed? If he never fails, you may be outclassed.