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Old 08-04-2010, 05:55 PM   #11
Bruno
 
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

Are you talking about the DR of the shield, as an object, or Cover DR?

DR of the shield in general factors into Cover DR, of course, and the last version I saw, Low Tech was recommending just using the dang cover DR as per any other sort of cover, and figured HP based on weight, not the formula used to find the HP in basic.

The other thing I'm remembering is that metal shields are generally heavier than wood, wood-and-leather, or wood-with-very-thin-metal-facing, but they are not "take the thickness in wood, replace with metal" thick, nor are they *that* heavy. So they have more HP, because of more weight, but not so much as if they were literally transmuted to metal.

If you follow my babbling, I'm not entirely sure I do to be honest. I'm on vacation, and just overindulged for dinner and my brain is shutting down in self defense.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Are you talking about the DR of the shield, as an object, or Cover DR?
DR of the shield as an object. In other words, how much abuse it can take.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
DR of the shield in general factors into Cover DR, of course, and the last version I saw, Low Tech was recommending just using the dang cover DR as per any other sort of cover, and figured HP based on weight, not the formula used to find the HP in basic.
I didn't see any change to the Cover DR rules in Low-Tech. Which means that the Cover DR of a shield is still Shield DR + Shield HP (which are based on weight, yes).

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
The other thing I'm remembering is that metal shields are generally heavier than wood, wood-and-leather, or wood-with-very-thin-metal-facing, but they are not "take the thickness in wood, replace with metal" thick, nor are they *that* heavy. So they have more HP, because of more weight, but not so much as if they were literally transmuted to metal.

If you follow my babbling, I'm not entirely sure I do to be honest. I'm on vacation, and just overindulged for dinner and my brain is shutting down in self defense.
As far as I know, metal bucklers are 2-3 lbs. and metal rondelas are 5-7 lbs.

In other words, metal shields are lighter than solid wood and leather ones.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

Dan, did you decide to retain Duelling Bucklers as their own category with special rules?

So that the progression goes Duelling Buckler < Small Shield < Medium Shield < Large Shield?
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

A duelling buckler has no DB but gives a bonus to block. This works well with the optional rule that penalises all weapon skill rolls by the DB of the shield. So if you have a DB1 shield all of your weapon rolls are at -1. A duelling buckler avoids this penalty.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

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A duelling buckler has no DB but gives a bonus to block. This works well with the optional rule that penalises all weapon skill rolls by the DB of the shield. So if you have a DB1 shield all of your weapon rolls are at -1. A duelling buckler avoids this penalty.
Coolio.

Then classifying the rodela as a medium shield is a bit questionable, though. It certainly doesn't weight 14-16 lbs. and it's meant to be used in a mobile style.

After your clarifications, the mental image I have of each size range is about the following:

Duelling Buckler: Most MS I.33 bucklers, between 6"-12" in diameter for a typical man.
Small Shield: ?
Medium Shield: Anglo-Saxon/Viking Shields as well as Heater Shields, with round shields being around 30" in diameter for a typical example and an average heater shield being maybe 28" long and 21" wide at the top.
Large Shield: The largest examples of Kite Shields, see illustration, and Republican Scutums , both being around 2'x4' at their largest dimensions.

I'm not sure what constitutes a small shield, though. Are 20" diameter targes small or medium?

What makes the most logical sense for me is to say that the extant small shield stats describe shields between 12" and 18" in diameter. But this leaves a hole in the progression for shields the size of rodelas, rotellas and targets, i.e. at around 20"-24".

I'd be tempted to have them be their own category, weighting more than small shields, but less than medium ones and getting DB 1, but providing a +1 bonus to Block.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

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So unless for a very large man, it's probably 12" or less in diameter.

Thanks, that's helpful.
A forearm from wrist to elbow is around 12". So a little longer than the forearm is probably up to 18". A (edit)12"(end edit) round centergrip shield with a metal boss (a "buckler" outside the world of GURPS) is around 2 lbs, the weight they give for a Light Buckler.

For typical round or rectangular shields, I rate them by their largest dimension: up to 1' is a Light Shield, 2' a Small Shield, 3' a Medium Shield, and larger a Large Shield
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

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A forearm from wrist to elbow is around 12". So a little longer than the forearm is probably up to 18". A 2 lb round centergrip shield with a metal boss (a "buckler" outside the world of GURPS) is around 2 lbs, the weight they give for a Light Buckler.

For typical round or rectangular shields, I rate them by their largest dimension: up to 1' is a Light Shield, 2' a Small Shield, 3' a Medium Shield, and larger a Large Shield
I guess I'm wondering about an intermediary size, something analoguous to the Long Knife.

Being smaller than the typical Medium Shield, but larger than the typical Small Shield.

That would seem to me about exactly equal to the rotella, rodela and targe and fit the way these were very useful in melee combat, but mostly appeared when shields were less used to defend from missiles (because at that time 'missiles' meant bullets, which penetrated shields anyway).
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

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I guess I'm wondering about an intermediary size, something analoguous to the Long Knife.

Being smaller than the typical Medium Shield, but larger than the typical Small Shield.
Why. You have Duelling buckler at DB0, Small at DB1, and Medium DB2. All shields can be lumped into one of these categories. What does it matter if you need to pick a historical example that is an inch or two larger or smaller?
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

Wouldn't Relative Target Size vs Shield size be the best arbiter of shields. Since gurps has dwarves, goblins, halflings, giants and half-giants it would save space in organization. Even when considering human build ranges: 5ft scrawny grain only diet soldiers vs 6ft "barbarians" might have a very tangible impact in encumbrance.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: Classifying real world shields

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Why. You have Duelling buckler at DB0, Small at DB1, and Medium DB2. All shields can be lumped into one of these categories. What does it matter if you need to pick a historical example that is an inch or two larger or smaller?
All swords and knives could be lumped into the progression before Martial Arts, but Long Knives were still included in it and offered an interesting alterntive.

In any event, I found a shield in the CCoI manuscript that has exactly the stats I'm looking for, even if the description is different. So, clearly, it won't break anything if I declare that rodelas are equivalent to Parrying Bucklers apart from the special attack mode.
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