The economics of Faerun's Inner Sea

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Cernig

1) the thing to ship by teleport is information - who is buying/selling what, where and for how much. That means you no longer need so much "adventure cargo" - speculatively loading a cargo and hoping to sell for a profit where you end up.

Many merchants already do that, but given that they (and the wizard) have to have visited the place before, it's not infallible. My group of PCs are considering a network of linked Crystal Balls for the same purpose or at least some sort of filing cabinet that teleports letters.

Originally Posted by Cernig

2) Less adventure cargo means bigger (and more specialised e.g. bulk carriers) ships - since the contract to sell is assured before loading it makes sense to load bigger cargoes to fulfil bigger contracts.

Right. But given how longs ships last, shouldn't most ships be able to carry more than one kind of cargo?

And how big is bigger? Cargo capacity of 200 tons? 500?

Originally Posted by Cernig

3) The general principles and math of cargo, trade and war-fighting ability were well explained by S. John Ross in an article for space campaigns. The principles and formulae are entirely applicable to fantasy campaigns too - as Ross notes, most space campaign assumptions are drawn most heavily from nautical trade of the 14th-17th century Earth. I strongly recommend checking it out, as it has a lot of the answers you're looking for.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Cernig

4) a war wizard might well be more deployable and more deadly than a broadside of cannon - but he isn't as easily replaceable. In a protracted war of attrition, that matters a very great deal. The cannon-users will beat the wizard-users every time, over the long haul. Those who use both will win over those who use only one, mind you.

Cormyr has 3000 War Wizards and 13 centuries of stable government and rich revenues to build up a stock of magical items for the defence of the realm. It has not got the liquid capital needed to buy smokepowder at the going rate until 14 years ago, a cool $40k+ per lbs. (with more and more alchemists learning how to make it, it's in the process of falling down to a more managable $2k/lbs.).

With the tons of smokepowder Cormyr would need to supply its 12,000 infantrymen with powder, it may not be worth it for them to adopt it. Just peacetime training (and not heavy training) would cost them $12 M in smokepowder alone per month. That means that they'd be paying the cost to recruit a whole regiment of light infantry (or about a 3% increase in their military strength) in smokepowder costs per month.

Originally Posted by Cernig

5) At some stage, someone is going to replace the mercantilist paradigm with a value-added one, shipping in raw materials only so that they can fashion various things worth much more from them and then export those things. That nation is the trade-war winner and probably the first to advance to full TL5.

Thay imports magical components from all of the world and exports magical items. They're TL3+2 in many respects.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

What about “Teleport Without Error”?

About four times as rare as Teleport. But possible, of course.

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

2nd ed had “Blood Link”; 7th level necromancy spell, that made someone else pay the cost. It was considered a non-good act, but compared to most medieval punishments it seems quite light.

Very rare, but possible. This spell is actually the main reason for why Thayvian enclaves often have portals to Thay.

[balzacq]

Originally Posted by Icelander

My group of PCs are considering a network of linked Crystal Balls for the same purpose or at least some sort of filing cabinet that teleports letters.

It occurred to me a long time ago that any culture with both an interest in long-distance sea trade and reliable point-to-point crystal ball communication is going to solve the Longitude Problem right away.

[Cernig]

Hi Icelander,

Glad the Ross article was useful. I figured it had most of the nitty-gritty stuff you needed.

how big is bigger? Cargo capacity of 200 tons? 500?

From my understanding, as big as they can be built at TL. The Romans could certainly build ships of up to 400 tons. For carvel construction wooden ships the top end of practical size is probably about 750-1000 tons displacement. Maybe 1,200 tops. Larger than that and you can get "hogging" in heavy seas, a flex where the middle bends up and the ship is severely structurally compromised.


As to how many - as many as can be afforded. Ships are money-multipliers as well as force and influence projectors. When possible, most big cargo ships will be bulk one-cargo and far fewer (maybe 20%) big mixed-cargo carriers, with smaller "adventure-cargo" carriers carrying mixed loads taking up the slack as and when they can. Grain's a massively important cargo for internal shipping and for import, because of its multiplicative effect on economies - more grain haulage ability from a larger catchment area enables bigger cities, which means more manpower available for industry and more technological advancement, which means more value-added cargo to ship overseas and thus more money for investment. (Paris and London were both blessed with ample water-navigable catchment areas for grain, which is why they were two of the largest, most modern and most powerful cities for a very long time. Rome shipped a goodly deal of its grain in from Egypt.) Then come coal and iron ore, two more bulk cargoes...

For export purposes, big single-cargo carriers still have their purposes too. Wool, for one. The Hanseatic League built its power on importing fleeces and exporting woolen cloth.

Most ships, even at lowTLs, are for that kind of trade, not the high value rarities many think of first. Rarities tend to be compact and get their value from being rare, thus can happily be stored in a couple of chests in the Captain's cabin (often as the Captain and crew's own little "adventure cargo on the side" of their main purpose).

Regards, C

Edit - revised likely tonnage upward after from 500 tons - but for the higher value we're talking about a maritime empire like the British one during the heyday of wooden ships (say 1760 to 1805). Here's a page on the merchant ships of the time and their builders. Note that timber becomes a new must-need bulk cargo for shipping.

[Pomphis]

Originally Posted by Cernig

From my understanding, as big as they can be built at TL. The Romans could certainly build ships of up to 400 tons. For carvel construction wooden ships the top end of practical size is probably about 750-1000 tons displacement. Maybe 1,200 tops. Larger than that and you can get "hogging" in heavy seas, a flex where the middle bends up and the ship is severely structurally compromised.

But larger ships are possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)

[Befuddled]

If Waukeen, goddess of coin, wealth and trade didn't invest heavily in a worldwide network of permanent portals, I think she'd be egregiously remiss in her duties.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by balzacq

It occurred to me a long time ago that any culture with both an interest in long-distance sea trade and reliable point-to-point crystal ball communication is going to solve the Longitude Problem right away.

Well, there are minor spells that handle navigation effectively. No need for crystal balls (which are fantastically expensive) when you can fix your position with a spell.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Befuddled

If Waukeen, goddess of coin, wealth and trade didn't invest heavily in a worldwide network of permanent portals, I think she'd be egregiously remiss in her duties.

She'd be infringing on the divine portfolio of several other gods (and she's disinclined to do that just yet). The god whose portfolio includes portals also happens to be a deity of exploration and travel, so he'd be very displeased if people stopped walking and riding. The gods of the sea might also be opposed to the idea of lessening traffic on the waves.

But she does provide a means to bank money at her temples and withdraw at other temples, elsewhere in the world. And secures contracts. Which works to increase the amount of wealth in circulation.

Creating a permanent magical portal large enough for caravans between Waterdeep and an Inner Sea city would be a massive undertaking (the sort which campaigns focus on for years), but I agree that it would alter the trade possibilities hugely.

The problem with relying on portal trade, however, is the effect such a network might have on the Weave. Faerun's history includes more than one magical catastrophe caused by using powerful magic too extensively and with too little regard for the integrity of the fabric of reality. So far, Mystra (the goddess of magic) hasn't looked with favour on any attempt to create a closely connected network of really huge portals that allow enough traffic for large-scale trade. Sages and magical theorists speculate that constant traffic through the Weave at given points might weaken the planar fabric, risking all sorts of dangerous effects.

That doesn't stop portal trade, of course. But it has kept the rulers of Waterdeep, Cormyr and most other inherently conservative realms from creating the kind of portal network that could make ships and caravans obsolete.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Cernig

For export purposes, big single-cargo carriers still have their purposes too. Wool, for one. The Hanseatic League built its power on importing fleeces and exporting woolen cloth.

In Faerun, so does Cormyr. ;)

Originally Posted by Cernig

Most ships, even at lowTLs, are for that kind of trade, not the high value rarities many think of first. Rarities tend to be compact and get their value from being rare, thus can happily be stored in a couple of chests in the Captain's cabin (often as the Captain and crew's own little "adventure cargo on the side" of their main purpose).

Regards, C

Edit - revised likely tonnage upward after from 500 tons - but for the higher value we're talking about a maritime empire like the British one during the heyday of wooden ships (say 1760 to 1805). Here's a page on the merchant ships of the time and their builders. Note that timber becomes a new must-need bulk cargo for shipping.

So far, my PCs have been shipping timber to Raven's Bluff, a city rebuilding its navy, and have moved wine, fine swords and other adventure cargo on the side.

They're thinking about branching out into finished furniture and woodcarvings (from Tantras), foodstuffs (that they'll pick up in Thay and move into wartorn Unther), high-quality marble (from Unther) and see what else strikes their fancy.

[Icelander]

I've been doing a little back of the envelope calculations for portals and I note that they're impractical for bulk transport largely because they decay the more they are used. Not to mention that the vast majority of portals are limited in how often per day they'll function.

Shipping 32k tons (the yearly throughput of a decent Sembian shipping house) through a portal will pose a very real risk. As in 'fabric of reality unravels' risk.

Of course, that still doesn't mean that shipping perishables quickly and reliably over vast distances in a few moments isn't profitable. But for grain, lumber, coals, iron ingots, wool and such goods, portals aren't worth it if shipping is available.

But since modern portal creation spells are sadly unreliable compared to the ancient lore, finding a working portal nexus created by the elven realms, the Netherese or the Imaskari would be the ultimate coup.

There are at least nine gates located in the former Netherese outpost of Sargauth (now Skullport) that are large enough to permit ships to pass through and they lead to places are widely scattered as Calimshan, Luskan, Halruaa and the deep Underdark. The secrets to their use are closely guarded by those who have discovered them and more than one criminal syndicate or merchant family is fabulously rich because of stratetic use of these portals.

There's also a promising network in the Moonsea (unfortunately controlled by the Zhentarim, an organisation dedicated to controlling overland trade by any means possible).