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Old 02-17-2014, 08:53 AM   #21
Figleaf23
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Default Re: Can't decide on Gurps 4e or Hero 6e

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You don't get a default before you've had an automobile's controls explained to you.
Yes you can.

But that's beside the point I was making anyway. My point was that you get a default without training, even a day of training is better than default by some (albeit perhaps sub-granular) amount.

Last edited by Figleaf23; 02-17-2014 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: Can't decide on Gurps 4e or Hero 6e

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
No, it isn't. It's assuming they have had no training or experience with the device, but still get their default.

Defaults do not take into account familiarity penalties. If you've never fired a revolver, but have had a day of training with a pistol, you'll be at -2 or so from your normal default due to familiarity penalties.

Similarly, if you've never trained or had first-hand experience with any automobile, you'll be at something like -6 on your default Driving roll - but you'll still be able to attempt it. If you had grown up 'in a burlap sack' or otherwise in special circumstances to eliminate your Driving default, you wouldn't even be able to attempt the roll.

That first day of training eliminates those really, really high familiarity penalties - it doesn't give you points in the skill yet. But that's definitely enough to be noticeable!
Driving is average so the default is going to be -5 without factoring in any "familiarity penalties" now if they come from another culture it's like -3 on top of that for a whopping -8

Driving takes a little bit of practice (which is why it's average) so yeah if you want to get granular then that -5 isn't going away all at once maybe subtract -1 per day of practice or every other day.

I can say this though, in practice I don't think I would ever get so granular, at least I haven't had to yet.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Can't decide on Gurps 4e or Hero 6e

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Originally Posted by pfharlock View Post
Driving is average so the default is going to be -5 without factoring in any "familiarity penalties" now if they come from another culture it's like -3 on top of that for a whopping -8

Driving takes a little bit of practice (which is why it's average) so yeah if you want to get granular then that -5 isn't going away all at once maybe subtract -1 per day of practice or every other day.

I can say this though, in practice I don't think I would ever get so granular, at least I haven't had to yet.
Where are you getting this 'come from another culture' stuff? If they come from another culture where they've never seen cars before, they get no default whatsoever. They automatically fail or critically fail any attempt to operate a motor vehicle until they get proper training.

Those familiarity penalties are the things that eliminate the -6 in penalties that you'd get for never driving a vehicle before when you get 8 hours of practice. You'll still have the normal -5 default penalty, but at least you won't be at -11 to your roll!
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:57 AM   #24
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

I'll stick to using the skill defaults as written, which is more than enough penalty for performing untrained tasks. (Part of the reason the default penalties as written don't bother me more is because you have the option of taking extra time or in the case of combat making telegraphic attacks to compensate).

My players would revolt if I started sticking them with -11 penalties for attempting untrained skills (and rightfully so in my opinnion).

I agree there are some things that you simply cannot attempt if you have no training, things that fall into the hard and very hard categories are excellent candidates. If someone says I'm going to chart a navigational course and doesn't have any skill in math/trig/cartography or something, I'm going to be like, sorry, but you don't have the required background.
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Old 02-17-2014, 10:34 AM   #25
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

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Originally Posted by pfharlock View Post
I'll stick to using the skill defaults as written, which is more than enough penalty for performing untrained tasks. (Part of the reason the default penalties as written don't bother me more is because you have the option of taking extra time or in the case of combat making telegraphic attacks to compensate).

My players would revolt if I started sticking them with -11 penalties for attempting untrained skills (and rightfully so in my opinnion).

I agree there are some things that you simply cannot attempt if you have no training, things that fall into the hard and very hard categories are excellent candidates. If someone says I'm going to chart a navigational course and doesn't have any skill in math/trig/cartography or something, I'm going to be like, sorry, but you don't have the required background.
*shrug* Maybe so, but that's not how the rules as written work. You're ignoring familiarity penalties by doing so, and are thus playing a house-ruled version of GURPS - which is fine, of course, but it does kind of deflate your argument that GURPS has no rules for teaching somebody how to drive or shoot a gun for only a day and making them get noticeably better.
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Old 02-17-2014, 10:58 AM   #26
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
*shrug* Maybe so, but that's not how the rules as written work. You're ignoring familiarity penalties by doing so, and are thus playing a house-ruled version of GURPS - which is fine, of course, but it does kind of deflate your argument that GURPS has no rules for teaching somebody how to drive or shoot a gun for only a day and making them get noticeably better.
That was never my argument, it might have been someone else's.

Edit: I don't think there is a player in this forum that follows every rule in the gurps books. Your telling me that to ignore even a single rule makes it "house ruled" gurps. If that's the case then that's what we are all doing.

Also, I've seen people try to use every rule in every book without applying common sense, the result is not pretty.

Last edited by pfharlock; 02-17-2014 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:00 AM   #27
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

Most believable people have several Dabbler perks (Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 16). Every year, they add more . . . or, more likely, they rotate the skills in the handful of perks they have, as they forget skills that sit unused and/or improve favorites into full-fledged, standalone skills. I'd give everybody at least one practical perk (for stuff like driving and shooting) and one hobby perk (for everything else), and real keeners might have an extra one.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

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Originally Posted by pfharlock View Post
No offense but I can teach someone how to drive... in a day.
Automatic or stick shift?
How long is that day?
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:32 PM   #29
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

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Originally Posted by pfharlock View Post
No offense but I can teach someone how to drive
Can you teach someone to drive well enough in that day that they can hop in a squad car and chase a fugitive at 100mph on busy downtown streets? Or in an M-RAP on a military convoy under combined assault from HMGs, RPGs, and IEDs on a winding mountain goat trail in Afghanistan? Because that's what the GURPS Driving skill does.
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and or shoot a gun in a day.
Can you teach them well enough to have better than average accuracy in an actual firefight? If that's true than you probably should be working for a major law enforcement agency or military service as a firearms instructor. Nobody else can do this.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: Driving & Defaults, again

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Can you teach someone to drive well enough in that day that they can hop in a squad car and chase a fugitive at 100mph on busy downtown streets? Or in an M-RAP on a military convoy under combined assault from HMGs, RPGs, and IEDs on a winding mountain goat trail in Afghanistan? Because that's what the GURPS Driving skill does. Can you teach them well enough to have better than average accuracy in an actual firefight? If that's true than you probably should be working for a major law enforcement agency or military service as a firearms instructor. Nobody else can do this.
So I tossed in the towel on driving a while back (it's an average skill anyway which means it takes a little while to pick up (but not too long)

I have not tossed in the towel on shooting which is an easy skill. Who teaches people how to shoot in a combat situation in a day, try the US military. (Specifically I'm thinking the air force here). There's a post I made awhile back where I explain it.

Not saying they come out delta force commandos, but they come out with a basic ability to hit man sized targets at 100 yards. That sounds like 1cp skill to me.
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