Driving & Defaults, again

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Familiarity with that sort of thing is generally covered by your TL.

Maybe for adults but note that most US people take Driver's Education in High School.

[pfharlock]

When I originally brought up driving, that was probably a bad choice since that is an average skill in the basic set, (and is reasonable using my goal posts since it takes about a class's worth of training in the real world).

Guns are easy in the books, and I can attest that I was taught to shoot in a day. Not saying I was the best, but I could hit man sized targets at 100 yards with no problem. All of that was under ideal conditions at a range with no pressure, although I was timed (I forget how many shots out of how many fired had to land in like a minute in order for qualification, but I made it as did most of the folks I was with).

Take that for what it's worth. I didn't mean to get people stirred up when I made my original comments.

Really I was trying to demonstrate how easy it is to create new skills if you need to, (not that you typically have to since there are so many to choose from, but it comes up for me sometimes)

Allot of people have mentioned defaults and familiarity. (Not saying what follows is cannon). In my games I think my ruling would be (if it came down to it), that for an average skill or above, then yeah simply showing or describing the skill probably only gives the skill at the default assuming that the character couldn't have taken the default already due to complete lack of familiarity. For an easy skill the description along with a demonstration should be enough to get it at the 1cp level. Like I said not sure that it's cannon, but it makes sense to me, and if I am the gm then that should be all that matters (at least in my games).

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Maybe for adults but note that most US people take Driver's Education in High School.

Pretty sure that's not required for a default. The example in the book describes an example where you can use your default for scuba based on only having seen it used on tv. Certainly, driving would not be held to a higher standard than that.

Defaults of all types do not require training; they only require a cultural familiarity. As long as the skill exists and most people have an idea of how to use it, you get the default.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Bingo. Remember, too, that in GURPS 4e, routine conditions grant at least a +4 to the skill check. That means that most people, once they get rid of the familiarity penalties you mentioned, do a pretty decent drive to the grocery store. It's when you get snow, or a busy interstate, or some other such obstacle, that you separate out the ones who have really learned Driving in the sense that GURPS means. [snip]

Yeah, this. Modern roads are built to give you that +4, in good conditions. Subtract the modern road or good conditions or throw a sudden curve ball and an alarming percentage of regular folks tend to fail a Driving roll (which isn't necessarily a wreck - could be a missed exit, a possible wreck unless you and the other guy both fail a Vehicular Dodge, etc unless you critfailed, in which case expect at least a fender-bender if not waking up in the hospital) in short order. 1/2" of snow here turns this place into a demolition derby, and this is a state known for snow. [/professional driver]

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Maybe for adults but note that most US people take Driver's Education in High School.

Not to mention grow up riding in cars quite a lot, playing with toy cars, steering on your parent's lap, and observing parents and friends.

Just as GURPS assumes a baseline human with stats of 10, two legs and two arms, and so on for 0 points, rather than building everything up from zero, it also assumes some reasonable cultural background that provides defaults. The default for a skill isn't an inherent property of the skill that means it magically appears when you become an adult. And if you have a sufficiently different background, your available skills and defaults could be different.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by corwyn

Pretty sure that's not required for a default. The example in the book describes an example where you can use your default for scuba based on only having seen it used on tv. Certainly, driving would not be held to a higher standard than that.
.

Cars have more controls than scuba gear. I'm not sure which is more likely to kill you if you fail a roll at default but it's possible for both.

Defaults from Attributes are already so bad that enforcing Default and Unfamiliarity penalties seems like piling on but it would probably be realistic. A basic idea of which control does what will not let you deal very well with exactly how sensitive each control is. That's what Familiarity is for.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

But they can do it at default even without the day of training.

Not very well - they'd be at all sorts of penalties for lacking familiarity.

[pfharlock]

Originally Posted by Langy

Not very well - they'd be at all sorts of penalties for lacking familiarity.

That's assuming they come from a completely different culture (which in that case it's warranted), or have some other reason to be completely unfamiliar like "I grew up in a burlap sack"

[Langy]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

That's assuming they come from a completely different culture (which in that case it's warranted), or have some other reason to be completely unfamiliar like "I grew up in a burlap sack"

No, it isn't. It's assuming they have had no training or experience with the device, but still get their default.

Defaults do not take into account familiarity penalties. If you've never fired a revolver, but have had a day of training with a pistol, you'll be at -2 or so from your normal default due to familiarity penalties.

Similarly, if you've never trained or had first-hand experience with any automobile, you'll be at something like -6 on your default Driving roll - but you'll still be able to attempt it. If you had grown up 'in a burlap sack' or otherwise in special circumstances to eliminate your Driving default, you wouldn't even be able to attempt the roll.

That first day of training eliminates those really, really high familiarity penalties - it doesn't give you points in the skill yet. But that's definitely enough to be noticeable!

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Langy

Not very well - they'd be at all sorts of penalties for lacking familiarity.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But the point is that those entitled to a default get it without any day of training.