G4e Tech Levels for Merlin, Homeline

[DaltonS]

According to the table on B27, TL/8 now begins in 1980 rather than 2000. Does this mean that Merlin's tech level (and thus character skill TL) is now TL/8 between 1980 and 2000? Since the Homeline tech level during the corresponding period (2003 to 2023) also seems to be TL/8, should I remove the Low Tech disadvantage for Merlin characters infiltrating Homeline? Does the Cultural Familiarity penalty encompass adaptation from a magically assisted tech to a pure tech environment (and vice versa)? Since the current Homeline year is 2027 (see B523), does this mean Homeline has been TL/9 for the last two years?

              @==================================================@
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |
              |Clarkes Law, Merlin style: Any magic, sufficiently|
              | analyzed, is indistinguishable from technology.  |
              |   The railroad from Smallville will go to the    |
              |                  Shire. FNORD!                   |
              @==================================================@

[maximara]

Originally Posted by DaltonS

According to the table on B27, TL/8 now begins in 1980 rather than 2000. Does this mean that Merlin's tech level (and thus character skill TL) is now TL/8 between 1980 and 2000?

My advice is forget about the year and assume TL(6+x) where x represents the changes in the 'normal' TL path due to magic. As per Fantasy 64-67 consider how common certain spell are and give them a TL equivalent using the chart on B512. Remember that the TL is not going to be uniform across the board and spells are going replace some TL advances Homeline had.

For example if Breathe Water became common enough than Scuba as we know it may have never gone any where. Know Location combined with Tell Position makes GPS satalites redundent. The Healing College may have resulted in Lillchei's open heart surgery methods never being developed; heart-lung machines as we know them may not even exist on Merlin!

Depending on what qualifies as a 'disease' Cure Disease may make surgery itself redundent. There is a lot here that really hose the TL of Merlin.

[prosfilaes]

Originally Posted by maximara

My advice is forget about the year and assume TL(6+x) where x represents the changes in the 'normal' TL path due to magic.

There's no way it's TL6 in GURPS 4th ed. They detonated the nuke; that puts them into the nuclear age, TL7. The nuclear aspects of the nuclear age (nuclear powered subs?) may be stunted, but it's unlikely that magic derailed the first computers or other early TL7 inventions; magic was still very primitive at the time.

[DaltonS]

Originally Posted by maximara

My advice is forget about the year and assume TL(6+x) where x represents the changes in the 'normal' TL path due to magic.

Originally Posted by prosfilaes

There's no way it's TL6 in GURPS 4th ed. They detonated the nuke; that puts them into the nuclear age, TL7. The nuclear aspects of the nuclear age (nuclear powered subs?) may be stunted, but it's unlikely that magic derailed the first computers or other early TL7 inventions; magic was still very primitive at the time.

I think what maximara is trying to say is that TL(6+1) is the manatech age (1945+) with TL(6+2) being the manatronic age (1978+) "when Sephiroth [Industries] developed the Conduct Power, Steal Power and Draw Power spells." [p.T117]. This an important breakpoint, since where before magic was either used to enhance technology or replace it, now technology could be used to enhance and support magic.

              @==================================================@
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |
              |Clarkes Law, Merlin style: Any magic, sufficiently|
              | analyzed, is indistinguishable from technology.  |
              |   The putrid (censored) massages the cast iron   |
              |                 piranha. FNORD!                  |
              @==================================================@

[maximara]

Originally Posted by DaltonS

I think what maximara is trying to say is that TL(6+1) is the manatech age (1945+) with TL(6+2) being the manatronic age (1978+) "when Sephiroth [Industries] developed the Conduct Power, Steal Power and Draw Power spells." [p.T117]. This an important breakpoint, since where before magic was either used to enhance technology or replace it, now technology could be used to enhance and support magic.

Something like that but it is important to realize that per Steampunk to realize that the first used of a new tech or concept will in genral use the old guidelines as per H.M.S. Dreadnought which by 3e standard was TL(5+1) and would likely be TL(6+1) under 4e.

Fantasy points out "Technology does not develop in rigid lockstep" (F65). As the movie Atomic Cafe and Time Machine's "Future that never Happened" our understanding of atomic energy for nearly of all the 1950's was basicly TL6 which was another reason that I felt that Technomancer would be at TL(6+x).

As I pointed out thile I like the idea of Technomancer the way it was done resulted in tons of logic holes.

1) Japan surrenders Sept 14, 1945 as it did in OTL. Given the Gadget was such a disaster and in OTL it took two atomic bombs for Hirohito to assert control and surrender even though his militarty commanders wanted to go down fighting USSR or no USSR how this happened is never explained.

2) after Trinity why on earth would Stalin want to test an atomic bomb and why in Antartica of all places? If he wanted the power the US now had Siberia would have made more sense.

3) After these two events you think anyone but a total nutcase would want to even go near a nuclear reactor much less develop one? Hardly.

4) In OTL Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes of the military establishment was his arguement against the Hydrogen bomb (he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 would have prevented Oppenheimer from being pushed out of the decision process as he was in our history. Yet Technomancer implies that as in OTL Oppenheimer was pushed to the fringes and again no reason is given.

5) Illusion and Creation spells would have changed the way people like Ray Harryhausen did things and Lucus' Industrial Light and Magic would have gone a very different path than in OTL (assuming it ever got created in the first place)

6) Resisting the use of Compel Truth in court is illegal (pg 100) ergo since MR cannot be turned of off any MR person called into court would be forced to break the law. This is entrapment and a violation of the persons' 5th admendment rights. Also with with this spell many of the wrongful convictions we are seeing even now would have likely never happened in the first place.

7) the Antiquities Act of 1906 which is baced on the 5th admendment (graves and the corpses in them are property of the native peoples) make the whole Louisiana undead chaingang thing ridiculous. It also ignores the fact that abuses like those documented in movie I Am A Fugitive From A Chain Gang (1932) and book it was based on I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain Gang effectively ending their practice for almost 50 years. And what happens when DNA testing comes along and proves that zombie you have had working for 20 years was innocent? Mammoth lawsuit time.

8) The idea that demons would attack John Wayne and his fellow actors near St. George, UT hundreds of miles aways from the Trinity Site and yet leave Soccoro, NM a mear 25 miles away alone is totally idiocy. Why bother a bunch of actors when you have much jucier place like Alamogordo, Los Alamos, Sante Fe, Albuquerque, and Farmington to bedevil? Also if the demon activity was that high Hughes would have filmed the Conqueror elsewhere (the man was an egomanic not a meglomaniac). Then you have all the pictures Wayne made after 1956 not being made including The Longest Day which helped keep 20th century Fox from going bankrupt. And this is just Wayne - all the other actors with him did films afterwords and those film can't exist nor can the lives they influenced.

9) Magery 2 people with Enchant (which requires 10 spells from 10 different colleges) would be doing blue collar jobs. The whole purpose of the assembly line what that the majority of skills were in the machines not in the workers. "Industral Enchantment" is totally at odds with that consept.

10) Seemly every dictator getting Unaging as if it is a free sample.

[Diogenes]

Originally Posted by maximara

...
10) Seemly every dictator getting Unaging as if it is a free sample.

True, unless you bring him down to -10 HT. Or less.

[prosfilaes]

Originally Posted by DaltonS

I think what maximara is trying to say is that TL(6+1) is the manatech age (1945+) with TL(6+2) being the manatronic age (1978+) "when Sephiroth [Industries] developed the Conduct Power, Steal Power and Draw Power spells." [p.T117]. This an important breakpoint, since where before magic was either used to enhance technology or replace it, now technology could be used to enhance and support magic.

I think it's important not to overestimate the difference between Technomancer's TL(6+1) and TL7. Companies resisted the introduction of core memory and digitial cameras; if we wake up one day and discover that magic works, it's going to take a decade or two before we have it formalized and controlled well enough to start replacing other technologies. In Technomancer, there was a lot of fear of magic before 1960, and not all of it was dispelled by JFK. 1960 is mid-TL7. Economic conservativism and religious fears were going to keep a lot of technology development not replaced by magic until at least then.

Originally Posted by maximara

our understanding of atomic energy for nearly of all the 1950's was basicly TL6 which was another reason that I felt that Technomancer would be at TL(6+x).

That's, um, absurd. Atomic energy is, by definition, a TL7 technology. TL6 atomic energy is painting glow-in-the-dark watches with radium. The start of the development of the nuclear weapon marks the start of TL7 in GURPS 4th ed.

And, yes, we've read your complaints about Technomancer before. They don't need to be posted to every thread on the setting.

[DaltonS]

Originally Posted by maximara

Something like that but it is important to realize that per Steampunk to realize that the first used of a new tech or concept will in genral use the old guidelines as per H.M.S. Dreadnought which by 3e standard was TL(5+1) and would likely be TL(6+1) under 4e.

Fantasy points out "Technology does not develop in rigid lockstep" (F65). As the movie Atomic Cafe and Time Machine's "Future that never Happened" our understanding of atomic energy for nearly of all the 1950's was basicly TL6 which was another reason that I felt that Technomancer would be at TL(6+x).

As I pointed out thile I like the idea of Technomancer the way it was done resulted in tons of logic holes.

1) Japan surrenders Sept 14, 1945 as it did in OTL. Given the Gadget was such a disaster and in OTL it took two atomic bombs for Hirohito to assert control and surrender even though his militarty commanders wanted to go down fighting USSR or no USSR how this happened is never explained.

It's one thing to fight an army of round-eye invaders to the last man, and quite another having something as intrinsically unnatural as a Hellstorm erupting on home soil.

Originally Posted by maximara

2) after Trinity why on earth would Stalin want to test an atomic bomb and why in Antartica of all places? If he wanted the power the US now had Siberia would have made more sense.

Stalin wanted to exert total control over who would have access to the Hellstorm, and putting it on the most desolate place on Earth would do that. Also, there was quite likely a large NIMBY factor involved, given how little was know about the phenomena at the time.

Originally Posted by maximara

3) After these two events you think anyone but a total nutcase would want to even go near a nuclear reactor much less develop one? Hardly.

At the time, people had a lot more faith in scientists and the government than they do today, so when they were told that everything was under control they tended to believe it.

Originally Posted by maximara

4) In OTL Oppenheimer was religated to the fringes of the military establishment was his arguement against the Hydrogen bomb (he and his allies called it MegaDeath); the Hellstorms of 45 and 49 would have prevented Oppenheimer from being pushed out of the decision process as he was in our history. Yet Technomancer implies that as in OTL Oppenheimer was pushed to the fringes and again no reason is given.

If saying nothing implies things stayed the same, then yes, this is puzzling. However, it's more likely that lack of space is the real reason his career wasn't followed in more detail.

Originally Posted by maximara

5) Illusion and Creation spells would have changed the way people like Ray Harryhausen did things and Lucus' Industrial Light and Magic would have gone a very different path than in OTL (assuming it ever got created in the first place)

Remember how long it takes simply to learn a spell? Image how long it would take to invent and properly document a new one. And there is always the issue cost effectiveness and reliablity.

Originally Posted by maximara

6) Resisting the use of Compel Truth in court is illegal (pg 100) ergo since MR cannot be turned of off any MR person called into court would be forced to break the law. This is entrapment and a violation of the persons' 5th admendment rights. Also with with this spell many of the wrongful convictions we are seeing even now would have likely never happened in the first place.

I'm sure the law would be dafted so that people with natural MR would be protected from prosecution; however, their testimony would remain suspect due to their condition which would have to made public to the court.

Originally Posted by maximara

7) the Antiquities Act of 1906 which is baced on the 5th admendment (graves and the corpses in them are property of the native peoples) make the whole Louisiana undead chaingang thing ridiculous. It also ignores the fact that abuses like those documented in movie I Am A Fugitive From A Chain Gang (1932) and book it was based on I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain Gang effectively ending their practice for almost 50 years. And what happens when DNA testing comes along and proves that zombie you have had working for 20 years was innocent? Mammoth lawsuit time.

Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with this act. Would it apply to the corpse of a legally executed prisoner that was never buried?

Originally Posted by maximara

8) The idea that demons would attack John Wayne and his fellow actors near St. George, UT hundreds of miles aways from the Trinity Site and yet leave Soccoro, NM a mear 25 miles away alone is totally idiocy. Why bother a bunch of actors when you have much jucier place like Alamogordo, Los Alamos, Sante Fe, Albuquerque, and Farmington to bedevil? Also if the demon activity was that high Hughes would have filmed the Conqueror elsewhere (the man was an egomanic not a meglomaniac). Then you have all the pictures Wayne made after 1956 not being made including The Longest Day which helped keep 20th century Fox from going bankrupt. And this is just Wayne - all the other actors with him did films afterwords and those film can't exist nor can the lives they influenced.

First, the demons materialized near the Nevada Test Area (inside the Nellis Air Force Range), not in New Mexico. This is approximately 150 miles due west of St. George, UT, but only 50 miles north-west of Los Vegas. (Perhaps "Sin City" already had some protection in place.) As to why the film crew was attacked and not the towns enroute, hundred of people out in the open is a much more tempting target than a bunch of dried up old buildings. (In OTU, the Duke's final cancer was allegedly caused by fallout from nuclear testing done at the Nevada Test Area.)

Originally Posted by maximara

9) Magery 2 people with Enchant (which requires 10 spells from 10 different colleges) would be doing blue collar jobs. The whole purpose of the assembly line what that the majority of skills were in the machines not in the workers. "Industral Enchantment" is totally at odds with that consept.

Long before there were robots on an assembly line there were people, each one trained to play a small part in the complicated "ritual" required to put together a complex machine.

Originally Posted by maximara

10) Seemly every dictator getting Unaging as if it is a free sample.

This would be counterbalanced by the Maintenance disadvantage, as skilled mages would be required to keep the dictator young.

              @==================================================@
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |
              |Clarkes Law, Merlin style: Any magic, sufficiently|
              | analyzed, is indistinguishable from technology.  |
              |     A hypodermic from the Last National Bank     |
              |         infiltrates the cannibal. FNORD!         |
              @==================================================@

[maximara]

Originally Posted by DaltonS

It's one thing to fight an army of round-eye invaders to the last man, and quite another having something as intrinsically unnatural as a Hellstorm erupting on home soil.

But you are going to convince them that is not some sort of trick. Given the fantical mentality they had this is going to be a real hard sell.

Originally Posted by DaltonS

Stalin wanted to exert total control over who would have access to the Hellstorm, and putting it on the most desolate place on Earth would do that.

How would it do that? Stalin would have wanted the thing in his country where he could control it not at the end of the earth where any Tom, Dick, and Hanry could go and take a look.

Originally Posted by DaltonS

Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with this act. Would it apply to the corpse of a legally executed prisoner that was never buried?

As the American Antiquities Act of 1906 was orignally written no. But modifications additions and interpitations had made dealing with the thing a royal nightmare. But it follows the tradition of the older 'Resurrection Men' Laws that grew out of antics of people like William Burke and William Hare who took the practice of digging up corpses for surgons to practice on to its logical conclusion - go out and make a corpse!

The spector of Resurrection Men would desend on Louisiana faster than anything else and the issue of the dead being the 'property' of the family would come up. There there is the issue of Louisiana being in the Bible Belt - you imagine any minister supporting this practice? The zombie chain gang idea would not fly anywhere.

Originally Posted by DaltonS

First, the demons materialized near the Nevada Test Area (inside the Nellis Air Force Range), not in New Mexico.

But in the Technomancer history there is no Nevada Test Area! And there in is one of the problems with the way the setting is set up. The book says A happens or doesn't not happen but a little futher on it says something wonky that contradicts A. The basic premice of unless it is obvious or we say otherwise a history followed the course it did in our history does not work any better than DC comic's efforts at dealing with its Post-Crisis universe.

Originally Posted by DaltonS

FLong before there were robots on an assembly line there were people, each one trained to play a small part in the complicated "ritual" required to put together a complex machine.

True but Technomancer espressly states that the assembly line enchantment require Magery 2 workers who know the Enchantment spell. That is a bit much.

[DaltonS]

Originally Posted by maximara

But you are going to convince them that is not some sort of trick. Given the fantical mentality they had this is going to be a real hard sell.

I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with the roots of Japanese military fanaticism but I assume there was a hierarchy involved, and if one of the observers was sufficiently trusted and of high rank wouldn't their advice be heeded? Maybe a close encounter with a demon proved convincing.

Originally Posted by maximara

How would it do that? Stalin would have wanted the thing in his country where he could control it not at the end of the earth where any Tom, Dick, and Hanry could go and take a look.

Except empowering the masses was not really high on his agenda. Besides, the electromagnetic effects could leave his country open to attack. (A remote chance I admit, but with his documented paranoia would he be willing to take the risk?)

Originally Posted by maximara

As the American Antiquities Act of 1906 was orignally written no. But modifications additions and interpitations had made dealing with the thing a royal nightmare. But it follows the tradition of the older 'Resurrection Men' Laws that grew out of antics of people like William Burke and William Hare who took the practice of digging up corpses for surgons to practice on to its logical conclusion - go out and make a corpse!

The spector of Resurrection Men would desend on Louisiana faster than anything else and the issue of the dead being the 'property' of the family would come up. There there is the issue of Louisiana being in the Bible Belt - you imagine any minister supporting this practice? The zombie chain gang idea would not fly anywhere.

First, think work gang (chains would be unnecessary). Second, the law might pass if the period of undeath was strictly limited, after which the zombie would be put to rest. Third, the sentence would have to be reserved for truly heinous crimes, such as child molestion and murder.

Originally Posted by maximara

But in the Technomancer history there is no Nevada Test Area! And there in is one of the problems with the way the setting is set up. The book says A happens or doesn't not happen but a little futher on it says something wonky that contradicts A. The basic premice of unless it is obvious or we say otherwise a history followed the course it did in our history does not work any better than DC comic's efforts at dealing with its Post-Crisis universe.

While the nuclear testing of our universe didn't occur there, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that secret atomic reactor research was going on there. After all, Nellis is the home of Area 51 where both Fafnir and Sinbad projects took place

Originally Posted by maximara

True but Technomancer espressly states that the assembly line enchantment require Magery 2 workers who know the Enchantment spell. That is a bit much.

Well, since Magery 2 is a prerequisite for the Enchantment spell, there really isn't any choice. The main purpose of Industrial Enchantment is to accellerate the S&S method by a factor of ten, so that enchantments of a 1,000 points or more could be done in days or weeks instead of months or years. The how (a mechanistic, enchanted work place) merely provided a frame of reference that made the whole procedure appear more high tech and thus more appropriate to the setting. (A business plan for financing the production line enchantment would probably make very interesting reading. ;) )

              @==================================================@
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |
              |Clarkes Law, Merlin style: Any magic, sufficiently|
              | analyzed, is indistinguishable from technology.  |
              |      The grasshopper from Topeka will go to      |
              |             Callahan's Place. FNORD!             |
              @==================================================@