01-20-2021, 07:20 AM | #11 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Each Missile spell has its own stats. Missile spells are thrown using the wizard's Innate Attack skill, not the advantage of the same name. The Fireball spell, for example, has Range 25/50, Acc 1. The Lightning spell has Range 50/100, Acc 3.
|
01-20-2021, 07:22 AM | #12 | |
Join Date: Feb 2016
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Quote:
|
|
01-20-2021, 08:15 AM | #13 | |
On Notice
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Quote:
"The second is part of the unresolved changes resulting from the alterations made to M8issile Spells in 4e. Most of the text involving the standard Magic system dates to a time when Magery 0 did not exist and an individual's level of Magery did not affect how Missile Spells (or any other Spells) worked. " Here is how Fireball appeared in Classic Magic: Cost: "Any amount from 1 to 3; the fireball does 1 die damage for each energy point spent in casting it." Now compare that to 4e's Fireball: "Cost: Any amount up to your Magery level per second, for three sec-onds. The fireball does 1d burning damage per energy point." Some of the points in the above thread: "I know of no official answer. My personal assumption is that the level of Magery an Item uses is "baked" into it at creation. Having Items Enchanted by persons with unusually high Magery gives a reason why such items might exist instead of having a Mage user just spend a cp and learn the spell for himself" "To cast a Missile spell, you must concentrate for one second. At the end of your turn, roll against your skill with the spell. There is no modifier for distance – you are creating a magical missile in your hand. On a success, you may invest one or more points of energy in the spell, to a maximum of a number of energy points equal to your Magery level." - Magic page 12 "Bold for emphasis. Note that the entry under using Magic Items seems to allow the Power enchantment to help out by reducing the cost to get the first x dice. So if you have a Fireball Wand with Power 2, this interpretation would let you build a 2d fireball while putting in 0 Energy (the limit for Magery 0). Now whether you want to allow someone to use a Power enchantment every turn spent charging a single use (ie. up to 3x Power for 3 turns charging) or only once per use seems to be left open for interpretation. My initial feelings lean towards only using Power once per cast, but campaign style, setting and party composition could make the other option fair."
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number. |
|
01-20-2021, 08:18 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Boston, Hub of the Universe!
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
As others have said, Power enchantment and/or Dedicated Powerstones are your best bet.
But also consider putting on other attack enchantments, so you’re not limited to just fire attacks.
__________________
Demi Benson |
01-20-2021, 09:18 AM | #15 |
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Also very useful is Ghost Weapon on a Staff. You can then cast Touch or Melee spells on insubstantial beings.
Another very good trick you get with just the basic Staff Enchantment. It's an enchanted object so you can stick it through a Force Wall/Dome. Bypassing eenmy Force protections is obvious but you can also protect yourself from mundane attackers without limiting your casting options. Wish I'd been the one who thought of it.
__________________
Fred Brackin |
01-20-2021, 10:03 AM | #16 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2021
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Quote:
Quote:
Quick-Draw seems like it would still apply (a wand does seem to qualify as a tool), and I could see new enchantments based on Accuracy and the like being something someone might invent (probably based on some of the Meta spells); but as written, the weapon enchantments do not seem to apply. Nor does Speed; as it is called out as not allowing a reduced duration. This also would seem to apply to Sandstorm and Spark Storm; the casting is instantaneous, but additional concentration is needed to build the storm's strength. On the other hand, something like Entombment could be accelerated. What about something like Fire Cloud, where the time to cast is just based on the energy input? I quite agree! It's just a matter of whether to use a Dedicated or Exclusive powerstone; both have their strengths. And one of the attractive features of the enhancing enchantments is that they apply to *everything* on the object. |
||
01-20-2021, 10:09 AM | #17 | |
Join Date: Jan 2021
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Quote:
|
|
01-20-2021, 11:14 AM | #18 | ||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Quote:
"Time to Cast" is listed as "1 to 3 sec" for Fireball on B305 B247 similarly lists "Time to cast: 1 to 3 seconds." M227 and M75 say the same. Based on that alone it would seem very straightforward to apply standard reductions. But what leads us to other contemplations is the sections which explain how Missile spells are cast, on B240 and M12. Both blatently say in their 2nd paragraphs "To cast a Missile spell, you must concentrate for one second." like this is a universal rule. The question is: is that just the minimum time, or also the maximum time? Rolling against skill always happens at the end of that second. This leads us to think "casting is done" because the way spells normally work is you don't roll against skill until the end of the casting time. Which is why I think the approach of "it's always 1, and the "-3" is there to indicate the option of using "Enlarge" If Enlarge is part of casting then you would expect it to be multiplied by things which increase casting time, such as having skill less than 9, casting ceremonially or getting a +1 to skill. In the latter case, I would speculate that would mean if you doubled the first second to 2 seconds to get a +1 that you would be obligated to spend 2 seconds to enlargeYou would similarly expect Enlarge to then be, if it can be increased per standard rules, also reduced by standard rules. So if you have -1 second to casting time from high skill, I guess you can effectively get a "free 0 second enlarge" ? The question "what is Enlarge" also effects things like energy cost of spells and how discounts apply too, and I don't know if we can separate our approaches to both variables: you would think that how Enlarge's energy cost is impacted by skill would inform us on how Enlarge's "casting time" is impacted by skill, and vice versa. If using Enlarge always took a minimum of 1 second (I assume it's intended to use a Concentrate maneuver but not really sure, it doesn't mention, similar to prepping a Springing Attack in martial arts) then it sounds like it would make more sense to treat it as a distinct spell (thus subject to minimum of 1 second which can't be reduced to high skill) except that you don't need to make any skill roll to succeed at it. For where that seems weird (if you seek crunch and like the idea of DX rolls for all readies, even casual out-of-combat ones) we could treat these "assume success, don't roll" situations as having TDMs of +10 and use the "don't roll if effective skill is 15+" rule for non-combat stuff, since enlarging isn't actually combat. Quote:
I think the closest stuff we have to that now are blocking spells (active defenses, not free actions) ... and maybe if GMs allowed you to enhance something that uses Concentrate as a trigger like Hang Spell or Reflex via "Reduced Time" (you can't use Reduced Time to cast in less than 1 second, but I'm talking about the concentrate used to activate a hung/reflexed spell, not the concentrates used to prep Hang Spell or Reflex to begin with) Quote:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-4.html#SS4.3.3 Here we see that the -1 energy cost is applied to total cost (sum over 3 second) so I think you would apply that to the 1st second until it reached 0, then apply remainder to 2nd until it reached 0, and then remainder to 3rd second. Skill 15 in spell doesn't give casting time reduction, this happens at skill 20, so we need to know how a skill 20 fireball works, basically. I do notice this FAQ says this: "With skill 20, you can't cast a 6d fireball for free by concentrating for 3 seconds." I guess this example is assuming the user has Magery of 2+ as otherwise you could only do 1 energy per second max... The focus here seems to be energy cost, so it's emphasizing that while you could do a 2d fireball free in 1 second, you can't go beyond that. It doesn't specifically address if you can cast a 6d fireball (base cost 6 energy) for 4 energy (6 minus 2) in TWO seconds, which I think is the prime question here. If this were the case you'd rarely have high-skill mages using Enlarge (they'd just max out the missile in 1 second) unless they had low energy reserves, in which case it might benefit them to wait until the next second (maybe some ally casts Lend Energy on them in-between) before using the Enlarge. Quote:
The only way I can think to speed it up is if you had Compartmentalized Mind, then you could be throwing a spell and prepping another spell simultaneously. I'm not sure if the order of that would matter... I could see using an Attack maneuver as something which might interfere with ritual requirements (physical gestures) if you need those or wanted to avoid penalties for omitting them. I also don't know if you have compartmentalized mind if you can specify either "Concentrate then Attack" or "Attack then Concentrate" on your turn, or if you're obligated to a fixed order. That could subtly matter for getting off 1-second missile spells. Quote:
I do like your idea of allowing Acc on a staff to give a bonus to hit if you took an Aim maneuver. After all it doesn't sound like you're "throwing" the missile spell as standard, and "throw" has also seemed like a flexible euphemism for missile spells since you actually use Innate Attack and not Throwing to target with them. If M13's "Pointing with a staff reduces the range to a distant subject by the length of the staff" applies to missile spells (pretty sure I remember hearing that) then I would envision "fired from the end" being how standard casting of fireball should work too. Which might mean if you're holding/enlarging a missile, it might be "parked on the end" instead of "parked in your hand" the same way Melee spells are "carried" by a staff, though I don't know if this is canon or spelled out anywhere. If that was the case then it would seem like carrying missile spells on the tip of a long wand or would be a sensible safety precaution for if you lose concentration and drop them: since they couldn't fall on your foot in your hex, instead they'd fall on the hex in front of you. Using a reach C short/standard wand wouldn't be enough to avoid that. For AE missiles (M75 Explosive Fireball) it wouldn't be an absolute guarantee, but having a reach 2 staff could at least mean the AE would be centred 2 hexes away instead of on your hex, meaning you could take LESS damage if you dropped it from lost concentration. Dividing damage by 3x the distance in yards means if you've got a reach 2 staff you divide the damage by six. Due to rounding down, that means a 1d Explosive Fireball could be relatively safe if cast via a reach 2 staff, if I'm right about "dropped further away": you have a 1/6 chance of suffering 1 burning damage if you drop it, and a 5/6 chance of suffering 0 damage. Quote:
You're double-cost to enchant a projectile weapon (as opposed to 1/10 cost to enchant a particular projectile) so that's 500 energy to get the first +1. By contrast, using M57's Power to reduce energy cost by 1 costs 1000 points, and 1 energy buys you 1d. It seems like the main advantage in Puissance would be getting max damage higher than the Magery of an enchanter would allow (I assume max energy invested per second is set by enchanter... though I could be wrong, perhaps it's set by Magery of user?) rather than energy/damage economy, except at high levels of Power: going from Power 4 to Power 5 is 4000>8000 energy, so spending 500 energy to get +1 instead of 4000 energy to get +1d is definitely a better deal. |
||||||
01-20-2021, 11:15 AM | #19 | ||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
Quote:
Winged Knife is unusual for a Missile Spell since it clearly isn't intended to work via the "Enlarge" process. I expect you can still "Hold" it indefinitely though before throwing it. It has an "Acc" which implies you can delay the attack until after an Aim used to get the Acc bonus. Since it's "magically throw" I think you use Innate Attack as standard with missile spells instead of whatever your throwing skill is. Quote:
going into the spell, but your skill lets you draw it from the surrounding mana instead of supplying it yourself" This is why you get less cost reduction for high skill in Low Mana (the -5) and why Power gives a smaller discount in Low Mana, since there's less ambient mana to draw upon to substitute for your normal sources. M7's "never an energy cost if you get a critical success" doesn't mention this is why but I would assume similar reasoning, except that mana levels wouldn't make a difference except where they change what range you roll a crit success under. Quote:
"On a success, you may invest one or more points of energy in the spell, to a maximum of a number of energy points equal to your Magery level."I think when you cast a 1 energy spell which costs you 0 energy (via high skill or power) you are still "investing one energy", it's just that you're investing the surrounding mana energy instead of your personal energy. If you fail your roll then it sounds like you don't have the option of investing energy at all, which sounds like the standard rule for "waste 1 energy on a normal fail, full energy on a crit fail" isn't a concern with missiles as their 4E writeups don't follow the standard spend>roll order, they follow a unique roll>spend order (well: Melee does too, so unique to those two types) Quote:
Hm... this is getting very high-res but now I'm wondering what happens if you're standing in a Low Mana hex with a reach 2 staff of fireball whose tip is extended into a High Mana hex.... Quote:
Quote:
This is a legal technicality since it's actually "one or more" not "up to magery". The "to a maximum" is apparently just capping the "more" amount and not the collective "one or more" expression. Quote:
Quote:
another is the lack of ritual requirements: yeah you need skill 15 to enchant in the first place but that still requires EITHER a word or gesture: NEITHER is needed to use your item if using Alternate Magic Rituals optional rule it's even more useful since omitting elements normally means penalties Quote:
Quote:
Exclusive Powerstones even moreso, if you're up for sacrificing the option to use your own personal energy and rely exclusively on ambient mana (Power enchantment) and the Powerstone. Quote:
Power/Speed just seems to mimic the rules for high school except perhaps in cases where we're told that high skill can't reduce cost: it might be possible that Power could reduce the casting cost of Lend Energy for example, though this could be iffy. Quote:
You already incorporate a ruby when building a Staff of Fireball so may as well reuse the ruby for other enchantments which require one. Only downside is if you crit-fail while enchanting per M17 you lose your prior work so there's a lot of risk involved the more enchantments you stack up. Single-purpose enchanted items are probably a lot more common in worlds which lack access to "Stable Casting" or "Stabilizing Skill" rules for minimizing risk of critical failures. I remember something like Low Mana is supposed to make crit fails less crit but never found crunch representing how: could Low-Mana enchanting prevent the destruction of components or previous enchantments, for example? Seems to be an unclarified benefit. Quote:
Quote:
If I bought "Affects Insubstantial" on a carrier attack I'd still need to buy that enhancement on a Followup attack: it's not usually a free benefit. |
||||||||||||||
01-20-2021, 12:40 PM | #20 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
|
Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?
The price always assumes Power 15, with higher Power items being priced as if they traded energy for skill (a Power 20 item would therefore be worth +200% of a Power 15 item).
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|