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Old 01-20-2021, 07:20 AM   #11
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Also, Refplace, you only give wands an accuracy of 1 for missile spells? Don't innate attacks start with an accuracy of 3? I figured having a stick to point with would at least keep it at that level..
Each Missile spell has its own stats. Missile spells are thrown using the wizard's Innate Attack skill, not the advantage of the same name. The Fireball spell, for example, has Range 25/50, Acc 1. The Lightning spell has Range 50/100, Acc 3.
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Old 01-20-2021, 07:22 AM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
IMHO this is a misunderstanding of how enchantment works. One of the problems is all the spells in Magic are slight alterations of classic spells which were written up when Magery 1 was the lowest a Mage could be so the problem of Magery o (other then a house rule) never came up.

"An item’s Power equals the caster’s effective skill with either the Enchant spell or the spell contained in the item – whichever is lower."

From this it follows that since caster’s effective skill includes their Magery bonus the Magery limits are also determined by the Magery of the enchanter not the user.
No, that does not follow, since a nonmage does not effectively receive Magery while operating a magical item. Anyway, if that was the case, a Staff of Fireball created by someone with IQ 12 and Magery 3 should be an least 50% more valuable than a Staff of Fireball created by someone with IQ 13 and Magery 2, as it would be 50% more effective, and we do not have any indication of such a price difference in the rules. In addition, this is also ignoring the limitations on the Magery of the creator, as such a rule would mean that a creator with Magery 3 (Dance, -40%; Day, -40%) [11] would impart their limited Magery upon the user of any magical item that they produced, which should really be reflected in the price (a Staff of Fireball that required its user to dance and only worked during the day should really cost much less than one not so limited).
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Old 01-20-2021, 08:15 AM   #13
maximara
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
No, that does not follow, since a nonmage does not effectively receive Magery while operating a magical item. Anyway, if that was the case, a Staff of Fireball created by someone with IQ 12 and Magery 3 should be an least 50% more valuable than a Staff of Fireball created by someone with IQ 13 and Magery 2, as it would be 50% more effective, and we do not have any indication of such a price difference in the rules. In addition, this is also ignoring the limitations on the Magery of the creator, as such a rule would mean that a creator with Magery 3 (Dance, -40%; Day, -40%) [11] would impart their limited Magery upon the user of any magical item that they produced, which should really be reflected in the price (a Staff of Fireball that required its user to dance and only worked during the day should really cost much less than one not so limited).
As [Magic] Magic Items, Magery and Missile Spells back in 2015 pointed out:

"The second is part of the unresolved changes resulting from the alterations made to M8issile Spells in 4e. Most of the text involving the standard Magic system dates to a time when Magery 0 did not exist and an individual's level of Magery did not affect how Missile Spells (or any other Spells) worked. "

Here is how Fireball appeared in Classic Magic:
Cost: "Any amount from 1 to 3; the fireball does 1 die damage for each energy point spent in casting it."

Now compare that to 4e's Fireball:
"Cost: Any amount up to your Magery level per second, for three sec-onds. The fireball does 1d burning damage per energy point."

Some of the points in the above thread:

"I know of no official answer. My personal assumption is that the level of
Magery an Item uses is "baked" into it at creation. Having Items Enchanted by persons with unusually high Magery gives a reason why such items might exist instead of having a Mage user just spend a cp and learn the spell for himself"

"To cast a Missile spell, you must concentrate for one second. At the end of your turn, roll against your skill with the spell. There is no modifier for distance – you are creating a magical missile in your hand. On a success, you may invest one or more points of energy in the spell, to a maximum of a number of energy points equal to your Magery level." - Magic page 12

"Bold for emphasis.

Note that the entry under using Magic Items seems to allow the Power enchantment to help out by reducing the cost to get the first x dice. So if you have a Fireball Wand with Power 2, this interpretation would let you build a 2d fireball while putting in 0 Energy (the limit for Magery 0). Now whether you want to allow someone to use a Power enchantment every turn spent charging a single use (ie. up to 3x Power for 3 turns charging) or only once per use seems to be left open for interpretation. My initial feelings lean towards only using Power once per cast, but campaign style, setting and party composition could make the other option fair."
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Old 01-20-2021, 08:18 AM   #14
DemiBenson
 
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

As others have said, Power enchantment and/or Dedicated Powerstones are your best bet.
But also consider putting on other attack enchantments, so you’re not limited to just fire attacks.
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Old 01-20-2021, 09:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by Willy View Post

The winged knife, dancing sword is an exeption, very useful,.
Also very useful is Ghost Weapon on a Staff. You can then cast Touch or Melee spells on insubstantial beings.

Another very good trick you get with just the basic Staff Enchantment. It's an enchanted object so you can stick it through a Force Wall/Dome. Bypassing eenmy Force protections is obvious but you can also protect yourself from mundane attackers without limiting your casting options. Wish I'd been the one who thought of it.
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
"Certain spells always require a specific ritual. Such requirements override the rules above [about rituals]. For instance, high skill has no effect on [...] the time to cast Missile spells." ([i]GURPS Magic, p. 9)

...

The Accuracy spell doesn't apply, because it is a weapon enchantment, and "the subject of any of these spells must be a weapon..." (p. 62). I'm certain this means a weapon in the mundane sense, not "stick that lets you shoot fireballs." This goes for Quick-Aim and all the other weapon enchantments.
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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Each Missile spell has its own stats. Missile spells are thrown using the wizard's Innate Attack skill, not the advantage of the same name. The Fireball spell, for example, has Range 25/50, Acc 1. The Lightning spell has Range 50/100, Acc 3.
These are both very good points, and answer my initial questions. Thanks!

Quick-Draw seems like it would still apply (a wand does seem to qualify as a tool), and I could see new enchantments based on Accuracy and the like being something someone might invent (probably based on some of the Meta spells); but as written, the weapon enchantments do not seem to apply. Nor does Speed; as it is called out as not allowing a reduced duration. This also would seem to apply to Sandstorm and Spark Storm; the casting is instantaneous, but additional concentration is needed to build the storm's strength. On the other hand, something like Entombment could be accelerated. What about something like Fire Cloud, where the time to cast is just based on the energy input?

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Originally Posted by DemiBenson View Post
As others have said, Power enchantment and/or Dedicated Powerstones are your best bet.
But also consider putting on other attack enchantments, so you’re not limited to just fire attacks.
I quite agree! It's just a matter of whether to use a Dedicated or Exclusive powerstone; both have their strengths. And one of the attractive features of the enhancing enchantments is that they apply to *everything* on the object.
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Old 01-20-2021, 10:09 AM   #17
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Another very good trick you get with just the basic Staff Enchantment. It's an enchanted object so you can stick it through a Force Wall/Dome. Bypassing eenmy Force protections is obvious but you can also protect yourself from mundane attackers without limiting your casting options. Wish I'd been the one who thought of it.
Wasn't there errata or another book or something that defined the "magical creatures" that could bypass Force Wall/Dome as needing to be composed entirely of magic (like an elemental), rather than a creature that had magical features (like a leprechaun or a zombie)? I assumed that applied to objects as well - a weapon with an enchantment on it (or a bolt from a Missile spell) couldn't pass, but the fire from a Flame Jet could.
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Old 01-20-2021, 11:14 AM   #18
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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The main thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is the Speed enchantment, which halves casting time for anything else on the item (per level of Speed). The description for missile spell casting (B240) dictates that you first cast the spell (concentrate for one second then roll), and then spend 1-3 of the next seconds charging it; after which it's ready to fire. What I'm not clear on is how much of this would be considered the "casting" step - what effect would Speed 1 have on this process?
This is also a consideration with how high skill in a spell reduces casting time, or how there are things which can double (low skill, or trying to get a +1) or decuple (ceremonial) standard casting time listings.

"Time to Cast" is listed as "1 to 3 sec" for Fireball on B305
B247 similarly lists "Time to cast: 1 to 3 seconds."

M227 and M75 say the same.

Based on that alone it would seem very straightforward to apply standard reductions.

But what leads us to other contemplations is the sections which explain how Missile spells are cast, on B240 and M12.

Both blatently say in their 2nd paragraphs "To cast a Missile spell, you must concentrate for one second." like this is a universal rule.

The question is: is that just the minimum time, or also the maximum time?

Rolling against skill always happens at the end of that second. This leads us to think "casting is done" because the way spells normally work is you don't roll against skill until the end of the casting time.

Which is why I think the approach of "it's always 1, and the "-3" is there to indicate the option of using "Enlarge"

If Enlarge is part of casting then you would expect it to be multiplied by things which increase casting time, such as having skill less than 9, casting ceremonially or getting a +1 to skill.
In the latter case, I would speculate that would mean if you doubled the first second to 2 seconds to get a +1 that you would be obligated to spend 2 seconds to enlarge
You would similarly expect Enlarge to then be, if it can be increased per standard rules, also reduced by standard rules. So if you have -1 second to casting time from high skill, I guess you can effectively get a "free 0 second enlarge" ?

The question "what is Enlarge" also effects things like energy cost of spells and how discounts apply too, and I don't know if we can separate our approaches to both variables: you would think that how Enlarge's energy cost is impacted by skill would inform us on how Enlarge's "casting time" is impacted by skill, and vice versa.

If using Enlarge always took a minimum of 1 second (I assume it's intended to use a Concentrate maneuver but not really sure, it doesn't mention, similar to prepping a Springing Attack in martial arts) then it sounds like it would make more sense to treat it as a distinct spell (thus subject to minimum of 1 second which can't be reduced to high skill) except that you don't need to make any skill roll to succeed at it.

For where that seems weird (if you seek crunch and like the idea of DX rolls for all readies, even casual out-of-combat ones) we could treat these "assume success, don't roll" situations as having TDMs of +10 and use the "don't roll if effective skill is 15+" rule for non-combat stuff, since enlarging isn't actually combat.

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Would the first step (roll vs spell level) simply no longer require concentration?
Not in 4e, it was only in 3e where 1-second spells could be reduced to free actions via high-skill reduction in cast-time.

I think the closest stuff we have to that now are blocking spells (active defenses, not free actions)

... and maybe if GMs allowed you to enhance something that uses Concentrate as a trigger like Hang Spell or Reflex via "Reduced Time" (you can't use Reduced Time to cast in less than 1 second, but I'm talking about the concentrate used to activate a hung/reflexed spell, not the concentrates used to prep Hang Spell or Reflex to begin with)

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Could you cast and do 1 charging step in 1 turn, and charge again and fire it on the next?
The idea of "create and enlarge in a single second" is one I can't remember seeing answered directly, but I speculate on an answer based on how energy cost is approached.

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-4.html#SS4.3.3

Here we see that the -1 energy cost is applied to total cost (sum over 3 second) so I think you would apply that to the 1st second until it reached 0, then apply remainder to 2nd until it reached 0, and then remainder to 3rd second.

Skill 15 in spell doesn't give casting time reduction, this happens at skill 20, so we need to know how a skill 20 fireball works, basically.

I do notice this FAQ says this:
"With skill 20, you can't cast a 6d fireball for free by concentrating for 3 seconds."

I guess this example is assuming the user has Magery of 2+ as otherwise you could only do 1 energy per second max...

The focus here seems to be energy cost, so it's emphasizing that while you could do a 2d fireball free in 1 second, you can't go beyond that.

It doesn't specifically address if you can cast a 6d fireball (base cost 6 energy) for 4 energy (6 minus 2) in TWO seconds, which I think is the prime question here.

If this were the case you'd rarely have high-skill mages using Enlarge (they'd just max out the missile in 1 second) unless they had low energy reserves, in which case it might benefit them to wait until the next second (maybe some ally casts Lend Energy on them in-between) before using the Enlarge.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Would firing it off then still be a separate turn (or would it be turn 1: roll and charge, turn 2: charge and fire)? Is there any effect at all?
It's always an Attack maneuver to throw the missile, I don't think there's any way around this.

The only way I can think to speed it up is if you had Compartmentalized Mind, then you could be throwing a spell and prepping another spell simultaneously.

I'm not sure if the order of that would matter... I could see using an Attack maneuver as something which might interfere with ritual requirements (physical gestures) if you need those or wanted to avoid penalties for omitting them.

I also don't know if you have compartmentalized mind if you can specify either "Concentrate then Attack" or "Attack then Concentrate" on your turn, or if you're obligated to a fixed order. That could subtly matter for getting off 1-second missile spells.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Also, is there any chance a wand with a Missile spell enchantment might count as a missile weapon, for enchantments like Quick-Aim?
M75 "Staff or wand – the bolt is fired from the end of the item" makes me wonder if this first requires the item enchanted to cast fireball first be a "Staff" enchantment (M70) or if lowercase staff/wand does not require uppercase Staff

I do like your idea of allowing Acc on a staff to give a bonus to hit if you took an Aim maneuver. After all it doesn't sound like you're "throwing" the missile spell as standard, and "throw" has also seemed like a flexible euphemism for missile spells since you actually use Innate Attack and not Throwing to target with them.

If M13's "Pointing with a staff reduces the range to a distant subject by the length of the staff" applies to missile spells (pretty sure I remember hearing that) then I would envision "fired from the end" being how standard casting of fireball should work too.

Which might mean if you're holding/enlarging a missile, it might be "parked on the end" instead of "parked in your hand" the same way Melee spells are "carried" by a staff, though I don't know if this is canon or spelled out anywhere.

If that was the case then it would seem like carrying missile spells on the tip of a long wand or would be a sensible safety precaution for if you lose concentration and drop them: since they couldn't fall on your foot in your hex, instead they'd fall on the hex in front of you. Using a reach C short/standard wand wouldn't be enough to avoid that.

For AE missiles (M75 Explosive Fireball) it wouldn't be an absolute guarantee, but having a reach 2 staff could at least mean the AE would be centred 2 hexes away instead of on your hex, meaning you could take LESS damage if you dropped it from lost concentration. Dividing damage by 3x the distance in yards means if you've got a reach 2 staff you divide the damage by six. Due to rounding down, that means a 1d Explosive Fireball could be relatively safe if cast via a reach 2 staff, if I'm right about "dropped further away": you have a 1/6 chance of suffering 1 burning damage if you drop it, and a 5/6 chance of suffering 0 damage.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Similarly, are items with missile spell enchantments valid targets for Accuracy, or Puissance; which apply to a generic "weapon"?
M65 Puissance applying the "Staff of Fireball" sounds like a cool idea to me. I'm not sure if it's 100% legal but it doesn't seem like it would be unbalanced.

You're double-cost to enchant a projectile weapon (as opposed to 1/10 cost to enchant a particular projectile) so that's 500 energy to get the first +1.

By contrast, using M57's Power to reduce energy cost by 1 costs 1000 points, and 1 energy buys you 1d.

It seems like the main advantage in Puissance would be getting max damage higher than the Magery of an enchanter would allow (I assume max energy invested per second is set by enchanter... though I could be wrong, perhaps it's set by Magery of user?) rather than energy/damage economy, except at high levels of Power: going from Power 4 to Power 5 is 4000>8000 energy, so spending 500 energy to get +1 instead of 4000 energy to get +1d is definitely a better deal.
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Old 01-20-2021, 11:15 AM   #19
Plane
 
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Would any or all of these apply to a weapon using the Winged Knife enchantment, rather than something like Fireball or Lightning?
Can't see any reason why you couldn't cast Winged Knife to magically propel a Puissance weapon.

Winged Knife is unusual for a Missile Spell since it clearly isn't intended to work via the "Enlarge" process.

I expect you can still "Hold" it indefinitely though before throwing it. It has an "Acc" which implies you can delay the attack until after an Aim used to get the Acc bonus. Since it's "magically throw" I think you use Innate Attack as standard with missile spells instead of whatever your throwing skill is.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Finally, I'd like to verify my understanding of how Power affects the process. The Power enchantment provides a similar benefit to other enchantments on an item that high skill levels provide ordinary spellcasting - it pays some of the fatigue cost for the spell being cast, allowing the caster to cast the spell at a discount.
I view Power as largely working like the cost deduction for high skill is explained on M8 "Energy is still
going into the spell, but your skill lets you draw it from the surrounding mana instead of supplying it yourself"

This is why you get less cost reduction for high skill in Low Mana (the -5) and why Power gives a smaller discount in Low Mana, since there's less ambient mana to draw upon to substitute for your normal sources.

M7's "never an energy cost if you get a critical success" doesn't mention this is why but I would assume similar reasoning, except that mana levels wouldn't make a difference except where they change what range you roll a crit success under.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
As I understand it, for Missile spells, this process works a bit differently - after a successful casting roll, the energy discount is already counted as applied to the spell, so you can still add your full Magery on top of that.

That is, if you have Fireball-15 and Magery 2, your first charging turn you get 1 free energy point, and can add another 2.
I toyed with this but am not confident it would be correct. If we read closely the description of a missile spell:
"On a success, you may invest one or more points of energy in the spell, to a maximum of a number of energy points equal to your Magery level."
I think when you cast a 1 energy spell which costs you 0 energy (via high skill or power) you are still "investing one energy", it's just that you're investing the surrounding mana energy instead of your personal energy.

If you fail your roll then it sounds like you don't have the option of investing energy at all, which sounds like the standard rule for "waste 1 energy on a normal fail, full energy on a crit fail" isn't a concern with missiles as their 4E writeups don't follow the standard spend>roll order, they follow a unique roll>spend order (well: Melee does too, so unique to those two types)

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Power 2 would provide an initial 2 free points of energy (for 2d damage) to each fireball, correct?
I think that's how it would work in Normal Mana, keeping in mind it's be 1 free in Low Mana and 4 free in High Mana.

Hm... this is getting very high-res but now I'm wondering what happens if you're standing in a Low Mana hex with a reach 2 staff of fireball whose tip is extended into a High Mana hex....

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
For Missile spells you only get the Magery (or Power in this case) discount once, not per charging step.
minor point: magery does not directly give a discount on either energy or casting time like Power/Speed enchantments, it's effective skill (multiples of 5) which does that, though magery obviously can help effective skill

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
a staff that would be useless for someone with Magery 0
..
no matter how powerful the item, a Magery 0 individual can only add 0 dice per turn, a Magery 1 individual 1 dice per turn, etc.
I think when people brought up a similar concern about Concussion (M26: does not require Magery 1 as a prereq like Fireball) there was a ruling that the energy-per-turn you could invest in missile/melee spells was the greater of 1 or Magery.

This is a legal technicality since it's actually "one or more" not "up to magery".

The "to a maximum" is apparently just capping the "more" amount and not the collective "one or more" expression.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
basically "from 1 to level" is from 1 to 0 at level 0,
1 to 1 at level 1,
or 1 to N at level N = 2 or higher
The first two cases can be summarized as "1."
Concussion is indeed an oversight; call it 2 instead of 1,
since explosive Missile spells are really just double-cost Missile spells.
The gist seems to be that whatever the minimum cost is for the minimum effect, anybody can do that regardless of magery.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
The idea here is to explore why a mage who's already committed to adventuring (the "Adventuring Enchanter") might go to the trouble to create a fireball wand to use *themselves* - particularly if they have unrestricted Magery and can already cast it unassisted!
since you roll against Power you don't need to worry about any possible IQ penalties you might be suffering for various reasons, I think that'd be one huge draw

another is the lack of ritual requirements: yeah you need skill 15 to enchant in the first place but that still requires EITHER a word or gesture: NEITHER is needed to use your item

if using Alternate Magic Rituals optional rule it's even more useful since omitting elements normally means penalties

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
The Power enchantment is one particular reason, granting them a damage bonus;
Technically a cost reduction though that could incentivize putting more energy into the spell if less of it needs to come from you. Still not sure if that means total energy put into spell goes higher.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Speed, if it applies, would be an even more compelling one - you'd double the damage output compared to a regular caster! The Accuracy enchantment, Quick-Aim, etc. would also be very useful, *if* they apply. I agree with Refplace that Puissance doesn't really make sense.
Don't forget Dedicated Powerstones: you get more efficient powerstone energy transfer if it's linked to a specific enchanted item.

Exclusive Powerstones even moreso, if you're up for sacrificing the option to use your own personal energy and rely exclusively on ambient mana (Power enchantment) and the Powerstone.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
So the consensus is that Speed has no effect on Missile enchantments?
I think that could still be under dispute? If the -2 energy cost for skill 20 could apply to the 2nd second (say you can only build 1d burning per turn) to reduce total energy cost I don't see why you couldn't similarly reduce total casting time.

Power/Speed just seems to mimic the rules for high school except perhaps in cases where we're told that high skill can't reduce cost: it might be possible that Power could reduce the casting cost of Lend Energy for example, though this could be iffy.

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Originally Posted by 5too View Post
Are there other enchantments, tools, or tricks that would give the enchanter using such a wand an edge?
also making it a wand of Extinguish Fire (72) and Slow Fire (73) and Fast Fire (also 73) and Resist Fire (74) would give you a lot more versatility/safety.

You already incorporate a ruby when building a Staff of Fireball so may as well reuse the ruby for other enchantments which require one.

Only downside is if you crit-fail while enchanting per M17 you lose your prior work so there's a lot of risk involved the more enchantments you stack up. Single-purpose enchanted items are probably a lot more common in worlds which lack access to "Stable Casting" or "Stabilizing Skill" rules for minimizing risk of critical failures.

I remember something like Low Mana is supposed to make crit fails less crit but never found crunch representing how: could Low-Mana enchanting prevent the destruction of components or previous enchantments, for example? Seems to be an unclarified benefit.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
a Staff of Fireball created by someone with IQ 12 and Magery 3 should be an least 50% more valuable than a Staff of Fireball created by someone with IQ 13 and Magery 2, as it would be 50% more effective, and we do not have any indication of such a price difference in the rules.
In theory an Enchantment with Power 20 should be worth more than an Enchantment with Power 15 too, but I haven't seen an indication of price difference for that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Ghost Weapon on a Staff.
You can then cast Touch or Melee spells on insubstantial beings.
Any cites to support this? M65 talks about the weapon affecting them but doesn't specify anything about spells carried by them.

If I bought "Affects Insubstantial" on a carrier attack I'd still need to buy that enhancement on a Followup attack: it's not usually a free benefit.
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Old 01-20-2021, 12:40 PM   #20
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: What else to put on a wand of Fireball?

The price always assumes Power 15, with higher Power items being priced as if they traded energy for skill (a Power 20 item would therefore be worth +200% of a Power 15 item).
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