Considering the standard 5 Mile Hex for TFT

[Terquem]

I was messing around with the table this morning, playing around with different sizes of hex and scales and I discovered that

If you always use a 1 inch hex (measured from side to side)

If the scale of the hex you play the game on is 1:48 (one inch/hexStS equals 4 feet)

If you draw an overland map with 1 inch hexes and each of those hexes can be divided, evenly, by three hexes, and so on, and so on

then - when you get to 1:314,928 scale (8x Zoom up from your game mat)

you will have a 1 inch hex that shows exactly 4.97 miles, or the "5 mile hex" that Jim set out to demonstrate

[Melichor]

Originally Posted by guymc

Province map hex 5 miles

If you are referring to: "APPENDIX C: A MAP OF SOUTHERN ELYNTIA, SHOWING THE DUCHY OF DRAN AND HULDRE FOREST" as the province size map?

It states that the hex size is 12.5 km from side to side.
Isn't 12.5 km converted to 8 miles (rounded from 7.77), not 5 miles (or 5.58)?

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by guymc

These are the map scales specified in In The Labyrinth, ...

MAP SCALES
Combat map hex 4 feet
Megahex/Labyrinth map hex 3 yards

...

Thus:
Labyrinth scale: 1 hex = 3 yards (9 feet), not 1 hex = 12 feet. ...

Hi Guy,
I'm super confused. A regular Melee hex is 4 feet across, and a Mega hex is 3 yards across? I would assume a typo where you mean 12 feet = 4 yards, but then you say, a Mhex is NOT 12 feet.

If a hex is 4 feet across, how can 3 hexes side by side be 9 feet???

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Terquem

I guess I just don't understand and I am "off base" because how can you draw a room and say that from one wall to the opposite wall it is three hexes, and say that those hexes are 4 feet across, then draw another map of the same room shown at a different scale that has one hex fit between the walls and that hex is 9 feet across and say that that one hex is equal to three of the other hexes

you are literally saying 9=12

I don't want to start an argument, because I am just a "map nerd"

but making objects fit on a map is important to me.

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Guy,
I'm super confused. A regular Melee hex is 4 feet across, and a Mega hex is 3 yards across? I would assume a typo where you mean 12 feet = 4 yards, but then you say, a Mhex is NOT 12 feet.

If a hex is 4 feet across, how can 3 hexes side by side be 9 feet???

One thing to consider is the shape of megahexes and hexagons, and that the orientation of a tactical hex is not the same as the orientation of the labyrinth hex representing the megahexes containing the tactical hexes (it's 30 degrees off), which are themselves not actually hexagons.

If you move in a straight line of tactical hexes, you are moving 30 degrees off the direction you are moving if you move in a straight line of labyrinth hexes.

If you lay out ITL megahexes in a line in the usual way to represent a corridor, using combat movement, you'll have to move three hexes to travel one megahex, but if you move off the megahex grain, you can do it in less. And if you measure three megahexes on a tactical map as the crow flies (instead of wiggling along the tactical hex grain), it's the distance of 8 hexes to travel 3 megahexes along the megahex grain.

i.e. the actual direct distance of 3 megahexes is the width of 8 tactical hexes, not 9 (people moving on tactical hexes (along the megahex grain) aren't going straight).

8 straight tactical hexes is 32 feet, so geometrically a megahex would be 10 2/3 feet across from side to side.

Guy says he's rounding for "nice" numbers... 10 seems like a nicer and more accurate number than 9, or 12.

[Terquem]

I built this to test some ideas

It is an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper with .45 inch hexes and aligned megahexes

Link to pdf document in dropbox folder

1:3,600 scale map sheet

Looks like there are some line weight issues on the image. I'll try to correct them and redo the PDF file in the dropbox folder. If it updates correctly, the link should still be valid but with a better file.

[fisherro]

Originally Posted by Skarg

One thing to consider is the shape of megahexes and hexagons, and that the orientation of a tactical hex is not the same as the orientation of the labyrinth hex representing the megahexes containing the tactical hexes (it's 30 degrees off), which are themselves not actually hexagons.

Hmm...my calculation put it at a little more than 19° off. I’m going to have to double-check my calculation now...

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by fisherro

Hmm...my calculation put it at a little more than 19° off. I’m going to have to double-check my calculation now...

Oh, yes, sorry, you're correct (which is even odder, since one tactical direction is 19° off one megahex direction, and so 41° off the next nearest megahex direction).

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

It's not a widely accepted standard, tho'.

Based exclusively on all those post-1981 references, I would agree - even though all those different authors couldn't seem to agree either - hence all the various scales you cited.

If you will simply research within the '74 Original D&D, Volume III, The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures, I think you will find the original standard was set and cited on page 17, under the topic of: Scale, recommended as: a 5 Mile Hex.

And there you have it.

Based on the standard 5 Mile Hex; wherein the 5 Mile Hex can be zoomed-in to to contain 625 smaller hexes which are encompassed by the larger 5 Mile Hex overlay; with each smaller hex being 0.2 miles (1056 feet or 352 yards) across, and containing 22.2 acres or 967,032 sq. feet. And, that same 0.2 mile hex can also be zoomed-in to contain smaller hexes considered to be 42.24 feet wide, with the 0.2 mile hex now serving as the overlaying hex, etc. This feature, allowed Bob Bledsaw's Judges Guild to turn out a metric ton of adventure modules, supplements, and reference guides based on that same scaleable 5-Mile Hex for adventure mapping, to dovetail with D&D products.

Additionally, it is this up and down scaling, based around the standard 5-Mile Hex, which in turn, when placed as either 5 hexes across the face, or, 5 hexes across the side, inspired the creation the diagram illustrated on page 47, of the 1979, 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide for AD&D - along with the instructions that the hexes can be made to any scale - such as: for *world maps* of *considerable territories* at 20-40 miles across - which I would *not* consider a suitable scale for the map of Southern Elyntia, as it appears on page 48 of TFT:ITL, as rendered at a scale of 1 hex = 7.76 miles (12.5 km).

Unfortunately, *why* and *how* the original 5-Mile Hex was used mechanically seemed to get lost after the time people transitioned to AD&D from D&D.

Without the knowledge of the reference of the original standard as it appeared in '74 Underworld and Wilderness Adventures on page 17, and *carefully reading* what Gygax is actually talking about - being the ability to scale up for *world-mapping of considerable scale*, in the '79 DMG on page 47 which you cited - as he fails to mention the original 5-Mile base (I guess people were expected to know this from D&D) and there is no clue provided as to *why* he is showing a big whopping diagram *specifically based around 5 hexes*.

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Really, you're just as off base in this case as Jim.

Maybe... but check the original reference first, then carefully re-read what Gygax actually wrote about 20-40 mile hexes for use in mapping *considerable territories*, and you may come to a different conclusion; or not.

JK

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Skarg

One thing to consider is the shape of megahexes and hexagons, and that the orientation of a tactical hex is not the same as the orientation of the labyrinth hex representing the megahexes containing the tactical hexes (it's 30 degrees off), which are themselves not actually hexagons. ...
Guy says he's rounding for "nice" numbers... 10 seems like a nicer and more accurate number than 9, or 12.

Hi Skarg.
OK, I see what you are saying. I measured things on my hex map, and three hexes along the hex grain are 7.5mm and from the center of a Mh to the next is 6.7mm.

Working this distance out to feet is 10.72 feet.

So I agree, saying that mega-hexes are 10 feet across is both a nicer number to round to AND more accurate. Thanks for pointing out what I missed there.

Warm regards, Rick.

[robertsconley]

I been working with hex maps for a long time and wrote a blog post on the various issue involved.

http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/20...ith-hexes.html

The later posts goes over the choices one has when drawing larger hexes over small hexes.

My recommendation is to use a squashed hex grid or a offset square grid for mapping buildings and interior spaces. Since this is about TFT I would go with squashed hexes. Then hexes for larger areas starting at the village level.