THE MISSING SUPPLEMENT: DOMAIN MANAGEMENT!!!

[cupbearer]

Bill Stoddard,

Yes its definitely a doozy!

I didn't suggest hand waivy formula's though. I suggest that at larger scales the granularization will be significantly less.

I did not at any time say i wanted fuedal europe as the baseline extrapolated both ways for other games. Actually i specifically said that was not somethign i supported.

Rather, what i said was that you had to do it from a large scale, figuring out energy imputs into a biosphere and how they convert (ie the food chain). From this standpoint you can make sweeping generalizations and still be realistic. In fact the generalizations will be an asset both from the standpoint of simplicity and from the standpoint of realism. The federal reserve cannot accurately predict the economic performance year to year, they make guesses, the world is a complicated place with many factors that blend together in ways that are beyond our understanding. I guess i am arguing for a newtonian method to look at the big picture.

My reason for not being able to undertake the task is that i do not have a background in mathematics or economics, which speaks to your point about Gurps having real world rules.

I still disagree with you that your fish race and the soviet workers would operate in a different way, they both convert energy to run their metabolism, they have a society and thefore can communicate, can do trade. I think the nuances of different societies can be penalties and bonuses (again paired with real world math). I do not think this is an easy task. But the multitude of genres is not the primary hurdle as you suggest. The term generic speaks to what i am proposing.

In my opinion, the big problem is up and down scaling, from domain/nation state to interpersonal. Ex. Will the cost of macro purchases equate to the costs of micro purchases when converted? This is incredibly complicated, and I am out of my league here. Again, my desire is real world math.

As far as you saying that it should be applicable in various weird settings (and my "hand waivy game" couldnt do that) fair enough, but you say yourself that you admit that its not impossible.

So where does that leave us? Well, I wanted to know what the deal was, seeing as Riggsby had done some work on this, would they expand it, had others tried? etc... I'm not getting much of that, mainly its a frustrating barrage of people saying "its not possible, nobody wants it" these are anecdotal opinions that kind of distract from the conversation. I feel like writing :"if you feel this way, why even post about it?

Regarding fiction writers: I happen to write myself, and people do that to me all the time, so i totally get where you are coming from. I am however not proposing that I throw out some ideas and somebody with brains goes and makes it happen. I am just wondering why no designer has been interested in this before. The answer you're giving is that it seems to be too complex, but again i look at that ribbsby stuff and that is too complex and yet there it is in black and white. Its interesting and puzzeling, because I bet you can't name another major facet of rpg/simulation this significant that hasn't been covered by Gurps before.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

You don't own the ten other supplements, fair enough, they still count though. You said i can't show how there is a market after reposting the long list of games that do domain management. What kind of suggestion is that exactly?

So, with that in mind how much did Navy seals in vietnam make for Sj games? Sorry maybe too obscure, how about alchemical baroque, whoa, must have been a huge pay off for them!
Compared to these, i find it a bit absurd to be having this conversation.

Books getting published does not prove a viable market, sales figures might.
But the point that GURPS is a smaller market is critical here. Unless the product is something that will bring lots of new players to GURPS you can base it off GURPS sales figures.
With all the other systems you listed (were any of them generic? several were feudal Europe) that means someone interested in a system already has choices, some better advertised.
Also since GURPS uses real world measurements it is possible some of those could be easily converted.

So how many books would such a supplement sell?
At best 500 and probably less based on E23 sales figures.
City Stats did pretty well but this would be more narrow in audience I think as statting a city is often more useful to a variety of games.

So some author has to come up with it first, we all agree there.
But sales on some 500 or less books is likely not much of a motivation when that same author can publish something that appeals to them more (see Bills post on that).

I therefore put forth that your approach is all wrong here, and in any case wont liekly get the book published.
So are you really looking for a generic supplement as the title suggests or something more setting specific?
Post your request as a question like "How can I manage a domain with these parameters?" and your probably going to get useful references or ideas.
This thread approach is more like "Why hasnt SJ Games dealt with this GLARING issue!!?"

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I bet, though I can't be certain, that if you if were willing to pay an amount of money that's significantly less than that, there's someone who would be willing to take that and write your supplement.

My point was to show that people were interested in this. It was in response to endless challenges to that fact.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

So there's a lot of things that already do what you want. Why is this a problem?

For the same reason that you post on this forum, the same reason you play gurps, the same reason i play gurps. They don't really do what i want, they don't give it the Gurps treatment. plus if im playing in those systems i can't very well be playing gurps and that is a problem in of itself. But you really didn't need to ask me this though.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think so too. It's probably as niche or only slightly more than Vehicle Design. That doesn't mean that someone will write it, though.

Try telling everybody else that. But to your point that no one will write, yes of course, that is the problem, hence why i wrote the post.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The problem isn't that you are challenging the completeness of the system, the problem is that you are demanding something that doesn't exist.

This is the most interesting point you have made. Firstly did i demand somethign that didn't exist? Or am i saying that i would enjoy this thing and wondered how it was that it didn't already exist considering how crazy the various supplements have gotten in terms of specificity of subjects (Navy seals in vietnam etc).?

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

So where does that leave us? Well, I wanted to know what the deal was, seeing as Riggsby had done some work on this, would they expand it, had others tried? etc... I'm not getting much of that, mainly its a frustrating barrage of people saying "its not possible, nobody wants it" these are anecdotal opinions that kind of distract from the conversation. I feel like writing :"if you feel this way, why even post about it?

Read post #2 again. That is not what I wrote.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Its interesting and puzzeling, because I bet you can't name another major facet of rpg/simulation this significant that hasn't been covered by Gurps before.

I run into them all the time, actually. I'm running a fantasy campaign in which the PCs are merchant adventurers of a bronze age world, and I've had to work out my own improvised system for deciding what cargoes they acquire at what price and how much they'll be able to sell them for. GURPS really does not give all that much support to mercantile ventures.

You want to design an ecosystem? GURPS doesn't even have a fully worked out set of rules for creating animal species, let alone for figuring out relationships of energy, biomass, and numbers.

There isn't a formal system of GURPS rules for weather or weather cycles.

GURPS now has rules for describing cities, but not for deciding where they are, what supports them, how big they are, and the like.

I could go on. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Read post #2 again. That is not what I wrote.

Yes i did. and on that point (designers with suitable backgrounds who know the system are willing to write that supplement) i completely agree. and have agreed with this now for the third time. I wasnt reffering to you in that post.

Further, i thought you were out, but i am glad your are back because i wanted to apologize about the last post, as i did misunderstand what you were saying. Your point was that spaceships, mysteries and action were the best selling gurps supplements but did not seem to lend well to expansion to domain management, whereas i thought you were comparing a product that didn't exist to one that did. well i was wrong there - sorry, now you must imagine i thought you were looney! Having said that, I dont' think that invalidates the idea that there would be a market for this, and i have posted a few things since then you might peruse to see more on this point.

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Books getting published does not prove a viable market, sales figures might.

Domains at war did 30k just in the kickstarter. Sales figures are readily available, just click on the kickstarter link i provided in an earlier post.

Originally Posted by Refplace

But the point that GURPS is a smaller market is critical here. Unless the product is something that will bring lots of new players to GURPS you can base it off GURPS sales figures.

Sorry i don't agree. My argument is that you can look at domain management in the industry and draw comparables, not from a sales standpoint, but rather from a portion of interest standpoint. There are many supplements devoted to it, it falls into a niche though obviously. At the very worst you are competing against alchemical baroque and the polish army of 1939, im sure i can get more subscribers that that.

Originally Posted by Refplace

With all the other systems you listed (were any of them generic? several were feudal Europe) that means someone interested in a system already has choices, some better advertised.
Also since GURPS uses real world measurements it is possible some of those could be easily converted.

A gurps player wants to play gurps. second, you will find that domain management is the done very poorly by the other systems (just like most of everything else is lol)

I own practically all of them, i've been searching for the holy grail for a long time pal. No one of them could almost be converted, to be honest though, i think that route is a lost cause.... also with the exception of Reign which i didn't even post up there (damn) none of them are generic. Also, Reign is not convertible at all.... read it and you'll see why.

Originally Posted by Refplace

So how many books would such a supplement sell?
At best 500 and probably less based on E23 sales figures.
City Stats did pretty well but this would be more narrow in audience I think as statting a city is often more useful to a variety of games.

Or maybe city stats did well because people had games where people were in positions of power in a city, which would seem to indicate the opposite. AS for how it would sell, dunno, i think were out of our depth here.
again, though, lord of the manor, gurps low tech economics, another crop one, city stats, mass combat (which is a dumb supplement to have without any econocmic engine to me) - all of these are filling in gaps and working towards the domain management thing..... so are you sure that it would do badly?

Originally Posted by Refplace

So some author has to come up with it first, we all agree there.
But sales on some 500 or less books is likely not much of a motivation when that same author can publish something that appeals to them more (see Bills post on that).

500 books is sort of made up, but to be honest even if youre right it doesn't matter much because, again it will be a specialist in this field who likes this kind of thing, not someone doing it for money, there is no money in this.....not for domain management or mysteries or whatever, its not that kind of gig. therefore the discussion of what it will make is somewhat irrelevant. it will do as well as the other supplements or slightly worse or slightly better.

Originally Posted by Refplace

I therefore put forth that your approach is all wrong here, and in any case wont liekly get the book published.
So are you really looking for a generic supplement as the title suggests or something more setting specific?
Post your request as a question like "How can I manage a domain with these parameters?" and your probably going to get useful references or ideas.
This thread approach is more like "Why hasnt SJ Games dealt with this GLARING issue!!?"

But I am asking that lol...., hence my title: "the missing supplement".

Its a missing supplement. I dunno why, so i asked.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I could go on. . . .

GURPS Vehicles, GURPS Vehicle Design System, GURPS Weapon Design System, a GURPS Space Opera genre product at the level of Action or Dungeon Fantasy. A genre book for military campaign at the level of GURPS Mysteries. A proper 4th-ed-compatible new edition of THS. A proper 4th-ed-compatible version of GURPS Magic. These are all things I hear calls for more often than domain management.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Its a missing supplement. I dunno why, so i asked.

If you will forgive my commenting on a point where I do have professional expertise, your title does not convey merely that.

° You capitalized everything, and ended with exclamation points, which conveys more intensity than fits "I was just wondering about this."

° No question mark is to be seen in your title.

° Subtler, but I think most important, you refer to "the missing supplement." The word "a" conveys that the thing named is one among many, just an example taken at hazard; it's called an indefinite article. The definite article "the" conveys that the thing named is the only one that could be referred to or thought of in a given context, either because there's only one (obviously not the case), or because it was previously mentioned and reference to it is being carried forward (but you were starting a new thread), or because it is so uniquely salient that anyone would have to think of it before any other possibility. And in this particular case that has the force of a rhetorical assertion, as if you began an article with "the crime of the century"—since there would be many candidate crimes, you would be implying that the one you were writing about stood out in front of all the others.

And, well, aside from whether anyone would buy it, or whether writing it is a manageable task, I don't think you have established that unique salience.

Bill Stoddard

[cupbearer]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I run into them all the time, actually. I'm running a fantasy campaign in which the PCs are merchant adventurers of a bronze age world, and I've had to work out my own improvised system for deciding what cargoes they acquire at what price and how much they'll be able to sell them for. GURPS really does not give all that much support to mercantile ventures.

You want to design an ecosystem? GURPS doesn't even have a fully worked out set of rules for creating animal species, let alone for figuring out relationships of energy, biomass, and numbers.

There isn't a formal system of GURPS rules for weather or weather cycles.

GURPS now has rules for describing cities, but not for deciding where they are, what supports them, how big they are, and the like.

I could go on. . . .

Bill Stoddard

Yeah i suppose, what i was suggesting when i said name something else is more to name another subsystem that is widely duplicated in other games but Gurps hasn't gotten around to...

As for ecosystems, I'm so excited, I'm reading between the lines here, are you an ecologist/anthropologist/systems/archeologist/history proffesssor, do you want to do this? I'm getting the feeling that you're being coy, but that you are about to declare that you will undertake the quest!!!!

Rest assured, once you have it all sorted out we can have a party...and I shall buy the icecream!