THE MISSING SUPPLEMENT: DOMAIN MANAGEMENT!!!

[cupbearer]

Agemegos,

Originally Posted by Agemegos

We know, because we used to have sales figures in the "What's Hot" list at e23, that Action, Mysteries, and Spaceships were top-selling GURPS supplements. Those indicate large number of GURPS campaign in genres in which running a domain does not arise. Since a lot of GURPS GMs are running campaigns in genres in which running a domain does not arise, that leaves the market for a domain-management system small compared to the market for GURPS, or as we call it "comparatively small".

C'mon man that terrible. Heres what you're saying in my eyes: "Because the sales are not good for a product that doesn't exist, the market must be small." Really?

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Dumb or not, I can answer it. There are spaceship rules because David Pulver wanted to write them, had relevant knowledge and insight (largely a by-product of other activities), and made a pitch that impressed Kromm as elegant, GURPSy, and commercial.

You didn't read that correctly. You see its just fine by me. that was my point. and we know why it was written, that is not in contention. Please apply that basic idea to domain management and then you will see that its not somehow out of order to make such a supplement.
I posted ten games that use domain management. Don't start again about commercial.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

There is a difference between niche genres and settings and niche activities. Bill and I (and lots of other GMs) have run GURPS campaigns in which domain management is never going to come up, but not so many in which personal combat and interpersonal interaction are going to come up.

Okay, you don't, I do, who cares? We're three people.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

That's rather like not seeing the Grand Canyon beyond the hole in the ground.

No, its pointing out that 90% of what you are saying is not really relevant to this discussion. Only the grand canyon problem is.

And i totally agree its THE PROBLEM, not small or insignifcant at all.

However, i content that finding people to play the system is not a problem. Again, i can list those dozen supplements if you like. Compare that to say all the weird one shot supplements that are so niche that i can't see any commercial reason to make them except for the fact that GURPS is that kind of game. Thank god for gurps right?

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Provided that you are content with a highly-specific product that is not generic and is not universal.

My opinion is that it would most definitely be generic, and it would also could be universal and should be. I don't think you have any reason to make the above assertions, to be honest, it stands to reason that if every other supplement more or less adhered to the standards of the game this one would too.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Is that too specific for anyone to ever publish a robust game system about it? A little while ago you were saying that there was a multitude of such products out there already.

I listed all the products in bold. Do you dispute them? I don't see your point. First its not commercially viable, then we can't compete, then nobody plays, then its too specific. Next it would only be for accountants... Relax, its okay you don't have to play it! I mean, you're probably never going to have the option to anyways.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Probably a great deal of violent intrigue, perhaps a war. In most cases it's inconceivable.

THis sounds like a weak sauce answer. You're a daimyo and you couldn't go for the shogunate yourself? why? actually never mind, its irrelevant anyways. You don't want to play it. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Dude: you quoted two sentences about my games — these sentences: "Well I probably won't be running a military campaign from the point of view of a monarchial ruler. My PCs are more likely to be mercenary officers, Imperial high officials, the senior military retainers of a daimyo, etc. etc" — and then wrote that I was making it sound like it's the opinion of everyone?

I know what i quoted, but consider this. I ask why is this supplement not made. The majority of your answer is that your friends don't like this kind of game. I'm assuming that you are posting in response to my exclamated title, so is your comment not inferring that its unpopular subject? If not, then i apologize...

Originally Posted by Agemegos

But they don't. If they did, they would have, and they haven't, that's exactly what you're complaining of.

Again you didn't read my post. I said that others may like to play this game. You're response seems to me to be miscontruing my words to be about the designers.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Anyone who disagrees with me about what campaigns I am likely to run is unlikely to get a civil conversation out of it.

I don't disagree with what you play. Again, I just think that this is a much broader topic than what you or i play.

Originally Posted by Agemegos

As for why none of the GURPS writers has written the product you want, I suggest that it is because they are all far more interested in other things, such as GURPS Vehicles and GURPS Weapon Design System, Power-Ups, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, GURPS Horror Madness Dossier. Ridicule that suggestion all you like, but your arguments that they ought to be interested in the product you want probably won't make them interested in it.

well... i wasn't ridculing it at all. Maybe that is the reason - you're probably right. And those are great products, I might add. As for whether i can make them interested in them doing it, i dunno, maybe not me by myself.... lol... you're not helping either! :P

Originally Posted by Agemegos

....you originally made out that a domain management system was the missing supplement (in shouty capitals and with three exclamation marks)

My stance hasn't changed there. it is the missing supplement. And it could be universal, generic, all of that and more! yippay! And there's nothing to say otherwise, becasue again we don't know what it is, and haven't played it!

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Maybe Matt Riggsby is working on it.

He'd be my choice - Go Matt!

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Well, until someone who does have the necessary knowledge and the insight to convert that to elegant GURPS-compatible mechanics designs and writes the thing, Steve Jackson Games can't publish it. And that's the answer to your question.

i agree with you. And i agreed with you in my last post as well.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

C'mon man that terrible. Heres what you're saying in my eyes: "Because the sales are not good for a product that doesn't exist, the market must be small." Really?

No, not at all. What I've said, twice already, is that the position of such GURPS products as Mysteries, Action, and Spaceships at the top of GURPS' sales figures indicates that a large proportion of GURPS games are in genres in which domain management is far less likely to come up than it is in D&D or Pathfinder games.

Anyway, we're not exchanging ideas, and I'm getting irritated, so that's it from me.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Traveller pocket empires
Birthright
Domains at war
A song of ice and fire rpg
Houses of the blooded
Fields of Blood
Harn manors
Pendragon lords
An echo resounding
Dnd Cyclopedia chapter on domain management
Ultimate campaign, battles, Rulership
Upcoming 5th edition mass combat and domain management rules (discussed by Mirls)
Empire
The sword the crown and the unspeakable power
Dark world
.

Out of my ridiculously large, 35 year-old rpg collection I have only Birthright and I got it for its' sections on guys with kewl powerz killing each other and stealing the other guy's kewl powerz. The parts about domain management I ignored.

So I'm only one more data point and you can still say that the market for domain management games must be out there somewhere. The problem is that it doesn't "have" to be out there. It's entirely possible that you're part of too small a market segment to be serviced economically. I know I am.

You can also say "But TSR published Birthright!" but TSR went out of business. Birthright certainly wasn't the whole reason but misjudging the market demand for supplements and overproducing things that cost too much and sold too little was a large part.

Not entirely mentioned before is that while lots of people play Civilization they tend to play it alone on their computers. There are board game versions of Civ and similar but they tend not to be played at the same time as rpgs. If SJGames did bring out a domain management game there's every chance that it wouldn't be an rpg or involve Gurps. SJGames is not primarily a Gurps company now if it ever was in the past.

You can continue to assert that the market "must" be out there and there "must" be lots of people who want such a supplement but you haven't supported your "musts" and I don't believe you can. .

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

He'd be my choice - Go Matt!

Meh. That dude's pretty useless.

[cupbearer]

Over and over this same dispute, commercial viability, fine here you are:

Domains at war kickstarted and raised over 30,000 dollars. This is not Paizo or wizards people. Its like two guys and some artists they hired. check it out:[URL="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/domains-at-war[/URL]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...domains-at-war

Is that enough? No? okay... Well, lets see... THREE NEW DOMAIN MANAGEMENT RPGs have been released this year alone. Two more will come out next year. I'm really not sure why anyone is arguing this one.

I'm getting the impression that because i challenged the 'completeness' of the system that somehow people are getting defensive. Relax. I thinks Gurps is the best game. Its not perfect though and it could be developed.
Could it be possible that a niche subject could fit into a niche game? I think so.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Not to be smarmy. but you reposted over a dozen games from my comment, mentioned only birthright and how tsr went out of business. then went on about how people like to play civ games by themselves then said that i can't prove im not in a small demographic.

What can you prove? Why did they make all of those games?

I didn't trim your full list of games but I did say that I only ever got one of them and I have a _lot_ of games.

More than the company that made Birthright went out of business. Almost all game companies have over the years. The fact that something was published seldom means anything except that someone wanted to publish it at the time. It doesn't mean the thing it was about was popular or that the company made money doing it.

I'm not the one trying to convince someone else to make a certain game for them. You are. The burden of proof is yours.

I started off trying to be polite to you. So did Agememos and several other people. You don't seem to want to hear suggestions that you might not be part of some great silent majority of gaming.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by cupbearer

Over and over this same dispute, commercial viability, fine here you are:

Domains at war kickstarted and raised over 30,000 dollars. This is not Paizo or wizards people. Its like two guys and some artists they hired. check it out:[URL="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/autarch/domains-at-war[/URL]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...domains-at-war

I bet, though I can't be certain, that if you if were willing to pay an amount of money that's significantly less than that, there's someone who would be willing to take that and write your supplement.

Is that enough? No? okay... Well, lets see... THREE NEW DOMAIN MANAGEMENT RPGs have been released this year alone. Two more will come out next year. I'm really not sure why anyone is arguing this one.

So there's a lot of things that already do what you want. Why is this a problem?

I'm getting the impression that because i challenged the 'completeness' of the system that somehow people are getting defensive. Relax. I thinks Gurps is the best game. Its not perfect though and it could be developed.
Could it be possible that a niche subject could fit into a niche game? I think so.

I think so too. It's probably as niche or only slightly more than Vehicle Design. That doesn't mean that someone will write it, though.

The problem isn't that you are challenging the completeness of the system, the problem is that you are demanding something that doesn't exist.

[cupbearer]

Bracklin,

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You can continue to assert that the market "must" be out there and there "must" be lots of people who want such a supplement but you haven't supported your "musts" and I don't believe you can.

Bracklin I did. I posted over a dozen games. You ignored them and just stated your own opinion.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Out of my ridiculously large, 35 year-old rpg collection I have only Birthright and I got it for its' sections on guys with kewl powerz killing each other and stealing the other guy's kewl powerz. The parts about domain management I ignored....So I'm only one more data point and you can still say that the market for domain management games must be out there somewhere.

When you said you were only "one data point" you were right. Should have left it there. You ignored my other games, and talked strictly about birthright and how tsr failed as though that might be the reason why (and it wasn't, but if it was, thats just one of the dozen games right?). If you had looked at those other games you might ask why they exist.... I think my posts have been illustrative of what i am trying to say. Despite saying you are "only one data point" without even one intervening comma you move on to say "and yet (despite my one data point) you can still say that the market for domain management games must be out there somewhere...."

Really? C'mon man, that's an awful argument.

Anyways, i want to talk about the positive sides of this, not argue with people. You disagree cool. But i am not out in left field for suggesting that this has a market.

My above post discuss' Domains at war and how much money they raised, the results of that venture seem to dispute your assessment.

[whswhs]

I think, cupbearer, that you didn't understand the point Agemegos and I were making by listing our campaigns. It wasn't "GURPS appeals to people who want to run weird campaigns, and so products have to be weird and have to sell to people who want weirdness." That would certainly be in contradiction to "Domain management is a minority interest, and is weird, and therefore won't sell to GURPS players."

The point, rather, is "GURPS appeals to people who want to run all sorts of campaigns, including a variety of weird ones with specialized genres and/or settings, and so products have to be generic and have to have room for customization for varied uses." I think that is borne out by such relatively specialized, but reasonably successful supplements as Psionic Powers or City Stats. They are on one specialized topic, but they discuss how to adapt it to varied TLs, settings, genres, and premises. And that's what a domain management book would need to have: generalizability.

Now, I'm not saying you couldn't do it. But your idea of doing it with very abstract, handwavy general formulae strikes me as not being up to the job. GURPS strives to come up with general formulae that fit the actual real world facts at least tolerably, which requires at least looking at those facts. And it actually sounds as if what your heart is really in is the idea of doing a TL3 domain management book (or, say, one good for TL2-4), and in particular one that would work for feudal Europe—and then taking its concepts and just porting them over to collective farms or stone age hunter/gatherers or interstellar colonists. I don't think that the porting over will necessarily work. And I think the core idea of "rules for running a knight's fee" IS too specialized to have a big market among GURPS players, whether or not it has such a market among D&D players—because GURPS players are more likely to be doing quirky stuff.

Other than that—fiction writers like to tell stories about the guy who says, "Hey, I've got a great idea for a story, but I don't know how to write. Why don't I tell you the idea, and you write the story, and we'll split?" The problem is that coming up with ideas for stories is easy—fiction writers often have notebooks full of such ideas. Actually turning an idea into a story is a lot of hard work. And that's more or less true for GURPS books as well. But what you've done is come up with a detailed idea for a GURPS book—and you haven't committed the faux pas of wanting a share in the royalties, but you've still assumed that contributing the idea was the key step in getting the thing written. It's not. I have a list of around twenty ideas for GURPS books I might like to write, and I'll bet all the other recurrent GURPS authors have something similar—and those ideas both tempt us more, and are more the kind of thing we would be able to research well enough to do a good job. So you're getting pushback. You don't feel able to write the thing yourself? Fine, but then you should give us some credence when we don't feel confident that we could do so either.

Bill Stoddard

[cupbearer]

Bracklin,

read the above (i cleaned it up and split the posts)

Further to that post, I don't feel that i am being impolite to you... but if i am, then i apologize, that wasnt the intention.

The issue is that I am showing proof and you are disregarding it. You reposted the list then simply made no mention of what was on it. Then said I have no way to prove what i am saying whilst the list lay above in bold as if it meant nothing. Your market knowledge comes from your large rpg collection. I think thats unfair.

You don't own the ten other supplements, fair enough, they still count though. You said i can't show how there is a market after reposting the long list of games that do domain management. What kind of suggestion is that exactly?

So, with that in mind how much did Navy seals in vietnam make for Sj games? Sorry maybe too obscure, how about alchemical baroque, whoa, must have been a huge pay off for them!
Compared to these, i find it a bit absurd to be having this conversation.