Question about Infinite Worlds and Quantum level

[AlexanderHowl]

Mana does not necessarily equal magic and magic does not necessarily equal mana (Thaumatology goes into that for a bit). In the case of Sanctity, it comes from (presumably) cosmic entities, so it is not really aspected mana. In any case, I prefer magic without mana, as I just do not like the standard magic system.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Mana does not necessarily equal magic and magic does not necessarily equal mana (Thaumatology goes into that for a bit). In the case of Sanctity, it comes from (presumably) cosmic entities, so it is not really aspected mana. In any case, I prefer magic without mana, as I just do not like the standard magic system.

If you nitpick, you are correct.

I did say that this is how I did it. I don't like going into those details, so I just use mana-level as a shorthand for "how well does magic work."

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Mana does not necessarily equal magic and magic does not necessarily equal mana (Thaumatology goes into that for a bit).

GURPS tends to go back to mana being the defining measure of how well magic should work which is why world data has mana levels and not Sanctity or Psionic levels.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In the case of Sanctity, it comes from (presumably) cosmic entities, so it is not really aspected mana.

As mentioned before Isis on Roma Arcana grants Magery (mans based) not Power Investiture (Sanctity based) to her priests and followers (F207).

In fact, if you really look at the mechanics of how Mana and Sanctity interact in that setting all that really differs the two is who the spirits ultimately answer to. If they mainly follow the instructions of wizards is is Mana if they manly follow the instructions of the gods it is Sanctity.

Fantasy actual goes out of its way to explain this:

"Roman religion draws no sharp line between gods and spirits. Gods are very powerful spirits, rulers of independent domains such as the weather or the sea. ... The Latin word for the power of a god is numen. Much of that power is in the spirits who carry out the god’s orders, so numen also means a spirit, or the god himself in the form of a spirit." (F201)

This put Isis in a strange position. She is (presumably) a cosmic entity and yet she doesn't use Sanctity but Mana which puts her followers at a distinct disadvantage compared to the followers of other deities who use Sanctity as where Sanctity is high mana is low and via versa.

This effectively is what Powers p 181 says: "In some settings, there may be no fundamental distinction between “magical” and “spirit” or even “divine” powers; “magicians” work by commanding or petitioning supernatural beings."

While mana doesn't always work that way it clearly does work that way in Roma Arcana

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In any case, I prefer magic without mana, as I just do not like the standard magic system.

Thaumatology allows you to return magic into anything you want but GURPS still uses mana as a short hand of 'how easy is magic' and in a homebrew setting like Five Worlds it causes a total disconnect as demonstrated by Fantasy Earth which is No mana but Magery (psi) effectively exists.

It is effectively Path/Book method of magic with no mana...and yes that does come off as contradictory.

[AlexanderHowl]

Mana is a form of energy, not a shorthand for how easy magic is. Otherwise, very high mana would be great (rather than being a disaster waiting to happen). Roma Arcana is just one weird timeline (they have dinosaurs as well), so it is not possible to generalize its features to other timelines. When talking about magic, Thaumatology is a better resource than Fantasy anyway, and Chapter One presents a lot of options for sources of magic, with mana as only one possible source of magic (similar to the sources in Powers).

For example, you could conceptually have magic with use deities as source rather ambient energy as a source, meaning that magic would depend on service to a deity rather than depend on mana. You could then have Flexible Magic, Path/Book, RPM, etc. being based off a divine paradigm rather than a mana-based paradigm. Only individuals who possessed a deity's preferred traits could use their magic and their magical items (pickier deities would also require that the individual worship them).

The main point though is that mana might be more common at lower Qs, but magic does not have to be absent from higher Qs. There could be fundamental forces that can be exploited by truly powerful entities and, through them, mortal practitioners. After all, the default vampires of GURPS are functional in timelines without mana, despite the fact that they are obviously supernatural, indicating fundamental forces that operate across timelines that defy easy explanation.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by maximara

It is effectively Path/Book method of magic with no mana...and yes that does come off as contradictory.

Just because you're not counting mana points doesn't mean that magic doesn't depend on mana.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Mana is a form of energy, not a shorthand for how easy magic is. Otherwise, very high mana would be great (rather than being a disaster waiting to happen). Roma Arcana is just one weird timeline (they have dinosaurs as well), so it is not possible to generalize its features to other timelines.

As I tried to explain that is the way GURPS in the past and until recently used mana - as a short hand for how easy/common magic was. Roma Arcana shows that mana need not be energy; there it represents how accessible spirits are to the wizard's requests.

[QUOTE=AlexanderHowl;2368725]When talking about magic, Thaumatology is a better resource than Fantasy anyway, and Chapter One presents a lot of options for sources of magic, with mana as only one possible source of magic (similar to the sources in Powers).

It also has "In some beliefs, magic requires the involvement of supernatural beings, usually intangible spirits." which is exactly what is going on with Roma Arcana.

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Just because you're not counting mana points doesn't mean that magic doesn't depend on mana.

But the point was NOT mana as demonstrated by this post:

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've seen a similar comment, that "magic leans towards the lower Quanta".

Magic in general be it mana, Sanctity, Alchemy, Psi, or superpowers with the 'dependent on mana level' limitation (-10$ IIRC) doesn't "leans towards the lower Quanta". Mana based magic may lean that way but with around 130 realties where we don't know the mana levels at all there is no way to canonal make that assumption and it doesn't seem to apply to alchemy based magic in any case.

[arcanus]

Originally Posted by maximara

I doubt that Centrum dismisses magic for the simple reason they know that physical laws are different in some realities. For example, something like Etheria should be impossible and that is not just in the physics being "off" but that Mars and Venus are able to support human life on their surfaces.

As for the "uncontrollable destructive alien power" that is likely out the windows as well as Azoth-4 , Azoth-5, and Milligan show this "magic" is controllable and, as leases from those reality's view, not "alien".

Absolutely, I was more inferring that Centrum's view of magic as an uncontrolled alien force, but yes they would be well aware of variant physics, reality quakes, gods etc

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Centrum strike me as too pragmatic to dismiss completely something as potentially useful as (demonstrably effective) magic.

They might, however, be too stuck on their own wordviews to widely adapt it, the more so since there are so very many worlds where magic is completely useless (and even more where this or that version of it is completely useless), and so very few worlds where a pistol fails to work.

This is personal taste however I'm seeing some merit in magic being Centrums 'prefers only English speaking' Achilles heel towards powers.

It doesn't fit with their worldview or scientific rationale, so if they can't avoid it they have ways to counter it but they don't embrace it.

The idea of them having a anti-magical defense program is appealing, so they could be very well practiced in artificially creating magic resistance.

They already have more advanced cliodynamics, targeted echo shifting and only one Transworld enemy, so magic could be Infinities ace, nothing like Merlin but another weapon in the armoury.

That said I seem to remember there being a Centrum Iswat type team, could be fanfiction, not sure.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

What about magical systems that do not depend on mana? Corruption, Effect Shaping, Energy Accumulation, Sanctity, Spirit-Assisted, Threshold-Limited, etc. are all magical systems that do not necessarily use mana. For example, you could have timelines where every type of magic except Mana-Based exists.

I treat them all being channels for mana except corruption and sanctity (which is drawing power from other sources), they just draw power in different ways.

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Usually I use mana-level to handicap all types of magic. In my world, Sorcery is the only magical system I use (outside of psionics); I'm running a science-fantasy right now.

I do the same having the mana level an element of magic adds challenge and variety.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Mana does not necessarily equal magic and magic does not necessarily equal mana (Thaumatology goes into that for a bit). In the case of Sanctity, it comes from (presumably) cosmic entities, so it is not really aspected mana. In any case, I prefer magic without mana, as I just do not like the standard magic system.

No I agree, I like the idea of mana with no magically ability, although in my opinion it opens up other avenues such are the worldlines inhabitants more healthy or heal more quickly (not a magical power just an abundance of energies), are they lucky or no effect at all, all these things add colour.

I have a soft spot for standard magic, although amongst RPM and sorcery, different flavours.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by arcanus

This is personal taste however I'm seeing some merit in magic being Centrums 'prefers only English speaking' Achilles heel towards powers.

It doesn't fit with their worldview or scientific rationale, so if they can't avoid it they have ways to counter it but they don't embrace it.

The idea of them having a anti-magical defense program is appealing, so they could be very well practiced in artificially creating magic resistance.

They already have more advanced cliodynamics, targeted echo shifting and only one Transworld enemy, so magic could be Infinities ace, nothing like Merlin but another weapon in the armoury.

Given how far back they diverged (1120) I'm surprised their "English" is in anyway compatible with many of the realities they deal with.

As the GURPSwiki section on language points out:

Languages also drift as time passes. Shakespeare's Early Modern English had a vastly different spelling, meter, and pronunciation then either 20th century American, British, or Australian English does.. More over. this shift can happen over a relatively short time - Late Victorian English has a different grammar, syntax, and rhythm than any of the English of the early 21st century; almost to the point that it is a "foreign" language. Even "dead" languages, like Latin, are not immune to this shift.

Take a gander at Chaucer (about 200 years after the divergence) and look at how different Middle English is compared to what we have:

"WHAN that Aprille with his shoures soote
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt 4 and heeth
The tendre croppes, 5 and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
And smale fowles maken melodye,
That slepen al the night with open ye,
(So priketh hem nature in hir corages:"

The only way Centrum can function the way it does is either the development of English (somehow) followed Homeline's path or they ran into close echos to Homeline early on and learned that form of English from them.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by maximara

Magic in general be it mana, Sanctity, Alchemy, Psi, or superpowers with the 'dependent on mana level' limitation (-10$ IIRC) doesn't "leans towards the lower Quanta". Mana based magic may lean that way but with around 130 realties where we don't know the mana levels at all there is no way to canonal make that assumption and it doesn't seem to apply to alchemy based magic in any case.

So we have a strong leaning among magical worlds whose quantum we know, but quite a few worlds whose quantum we don't know, and no real skew on worlds that rely on alchemy or super-science.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by ericthered

So we have a strong leaning among magical worlds whose quantum we know, but quite a few worlds whose quantum we don't know, and no real skew on worlds that rely on alchemy or super-science.

The unknown mana and unknown quantum worlds do have a high amount of overlap there are more the double the number of worlds for which no mana levels are given (~130) vs the ones for which no Quantum is given (~50)

We have a rough map of the Known Realities with 843 total. OF these 196 (122 described) are in the Q3-5 range. Another 421 realties can be written off as either echos or out side Homeline's range. This leave 226 of which we only have information on 96.

That leaves 130 of which we know nothing about.