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Old 10-12-2017, 11:26 PM   #1
Steel Lemming
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Default Spillover fire from OGRE AP

I was going to report this as a bug, but after rereading the spillover rules maybe I've been interpreting '7.05.1 AP weapons' wrong for decades.

I have always played it where AP weapons only affected INFANTRY and 0 def targets. This included other units stacked with the primary target for spillover. If a stack of 3 INF, 1 INF, a D0 CP, and a HT are stacked together. Then, AP weapons would attack and spillover normally vs the INF and CP, but ignore the HT.

In the Ogre video game though, I just had 2 SHVY disabled when a MK5 fired AP at the INF stacked with them. Rule '7.12.2 Units affected by spillover fire' seems to support that, but I believe 7.05.1 should take president over the lack of an explicit exception being called out in 7.12.2.

How as everyone else played this on the table?

Is there an official clarification of this somewhere that I've missed?

** 7.05.1 AP weapons. Some units have antipersonnel weapons, effective only against infantry (including special infantry types) and D0 units such as a regular (unarmored) CP. A unit may not fire AP at the same infantry unit more than once per turn, but any number of AP weapons may be used for that single attack.

Note: Any weapon may be used against infantry. AP weapons are useless against anything except infantry, targets with defense of 0, and other targets as designated in scenarios.

*** 7.12.2 Units affected by spillover fire. All units (friendly or enemy) in a hex are affected by spillover fire, except: (a) a unitís own fire does not spill over onto it, and no spillover fire is calculated in an overrun; (b) separate spillover fire is not calculated for a tank and the infantry riding it (Section 5.11.2), and (c) Ogres and buildings ignore spillover fire.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:21 AM   #2
selenite
 
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Location: Fort Worth, TX
Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

I had a tank disabled by AP spillover. I reported it as a bug.
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:03 AM   #3
Miuramir
 
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

I had the same problem tonight, although luckily the AI Ogre didn't roll well. Nightfall campaign scenario 2, 2x SHVY + INF(3) in a town+road hex, adjacent Mk. I Ogre with only AP weapons left. Ogre fired the AP at the INF, and afterward the game rolled for spillover on the two SHVYs.

I've always interpreted / assumed that 7.05.1 "AP weapons" : "... AP weapons are useless against anything except infantry, targets with a defense of 0, and other targets as designated in scenarios." trumped any other criteria. But, admittedly, the wording of 7.12.2 "Units affected by spillover fire" is phrased in such a way that it could possibly be interpreted differently.

We could use a formal ruling on this so we know whether this is a bug in the game we need to get reported.
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:11 AM   #4
offsides
 
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

While I wouldn't object to an official ruling, the text of the rules is clear; the second paragraph of 7.05.1 states:

Quote:
Note: Any weapon may be used against infantry. AP weapons are
useless against anything except infantry, targets with a defense of
0, and other targets as designated in scenarios.
Thus AP spillover against anything not included in that statement is an automatic NE.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:50 AM   #5
GranitePenguin
 
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

Quote:
Originally Posted by offsides View Post
While I wouldn't object to an official ruling, the text of the rules is clear; the second paragraph of 7.05.1 states:

Thus AP spillover against anything not included in that statement is an automatic NE.
There's no discrepancy here. 7.12.2 simply states how spillover works; it has nothing to do with the particulars of what's a valid attack. 7.05.1 states that AP can't be used against AUs, which makes spillover against AUs by APs invalid.

For programming purposes, the AP should not even trigger spillover and roll against anything other than INF and D0 targets.

On a side note... a D0 target that has an effective defense > 0 (eg, a CP in a Town hex has a D1) is still a D0 target for purposes of defining the AP's ability to fire at it. Just because it has a D-modifier from terrain, that doesn't mean it isn't targetable anymore.
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Last edited by GranitePenguin; 10-13-2017 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:11 AM   #6
AurochJake
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miuramir View Post
I had the same problem tonight, although luckily the AI Ogre didn't roll well. Nightfall campaign scenario 2, 2x SHVY + INF(3) in a town+road hex, adjacent Mk. I Ogre with only AP weapons left. Ogre fired the AP at the INF, and afterward the game rolled for spillover on the two SHVYs.

I've always interpreted / assumed that 7.05.1 "AP weapons" : "... AP weapons are useless against anything except infantry, targets with a defense of 0, and other targets as designated in scenarios." trumped any other criteria. But, admittedly, the wording of 7.12.2 "Units affected by spillover fire" is phrased in such a way that it could possibly be interpreted differently.

We could use a formal ruling on this so we know whether this is a bug in the game we need to get reported.
This has been logged as a bug and will hopefully be fixed in the next few updates - probably won't make today's, but we're hoping for a robust build over the weekend then ironing out a few of these kinks early next week.

Thanks for reporting! :)
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:48 AM   #7
offsides
 
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
On a side note... a D0 target that has an effective defense > 0 (eg, a CP in a Town hex has a D1) is still a D0 target for purposes of defining the AP's ability to fire at it. Just because it has a D-modifier from terrain, that doesn't mean it isn't targetable anymore.
Good point. I don't think it's stated anywhere, and probably is better suited to a FAQ rather than an explicit rule, but this is similar to the Munchkin 'Level vs Combat Strength' issue - the Defense value of a unit is static and does not change, whereas the current Defense strength can be modified by terrain, etc. (Or whatever official terms SJ and/or Drew decide to call them). This is also important for Cruise Missle detonation effects regardless of the D value.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:58 PM   #8
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

AP should not be able to hurt tanks, period. Not in direct combat, not in overruns, not with spillover. Not in a boat or with a goat. You cannot shoot it, Sam-I-Am.

Sam-I-Am would make a good name for an Ogre.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:11 PM   #9
GranitePenguin
 
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
AP should not be able to hurt tanks, period. Not in direct combat, not in overruns, not with spillover. Not in a boat or with a goat. You cannot shoot it, Sam-I-Am.

Sam-I-Am would make a good name for an Ogre.
Yes, but it would need a Mural of Green Eggs and Ham painted on it. :-)
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: Spillover fire from OGRE AP

Mk. III's attacking: "Thing 1" and "Thing 2".
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