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Old 10-15-2016, 10:50 PM   #31
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

After building a couple three AR's I've decided that the M16EZ was a silly idea.

I latched on something like the TRW Low Maintenance Rifle to replace it. I figured the simpler design would be easier to make than an AR system if all the government was giving out was barrels, bolts and trigger bits. Since the LMR used an M60 trigger and pistol grip, it seemed logical to use those instead of an M16 lower parts kit.

Because of how widely the rounds missed and how badly they keyholed, I usually assign a -5 for shooting M855 or similar round from a 1:12 barrel.
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Old 10-16-2016, 05:07 AM   #32
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

Really nice book, thank you.

Would it be possible to get the ODT version somewhere as I find the format a bit dense to read?

I also found a couple of minor errors:
The 6BZT entry has an error: The vest was normally issued with the frontal heavy plate that your listed weight indicates, but that heavy plate is 6.5mm thick titanium and is rated to stop and AK 47(5d+1) from close range as standalone. The rear normally had the 1.25mm titanium "shrapnel" plate. The vest itself is ballistic materials and I would guestimate it at about DR 1*

I would thus rate the 9.5 kg version with the two plates as about DR 20 front and DR 4 rear.

The SAPI Inserts are listed as 2 lb/plate. But really weight 4lb/plate.

and a possible minor error:
The US vest at the time was the original version of the OTV and not the improved IOTV. It is only rated to stop 9mm bullets(2d+2/3d-1) without the inserts so should likely have less than the listed DR 12, perhaps DR 10?

Then on to introduction dates.
A note to the effect like you have for other history changes might be good for the following:
The ACH was introduced 2002 in our timeline.
The ESAPI was introduced 2005 in our timeline.
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:16 AM   #33
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
The 6BZT entry has an error: The vest was normally issued with the frontal heavy plate that your listed weight indicates, but that heavy plate is 6.5mm thick titanium and is rated to stop and AK 47(5d+1) from close range as standalone. The rear normally had the 1.25mm titanium "shrapnel" plate. The vest itself is ballistic materials and I would guestimate it at about DR 1*

I would thus rate the 9.5 kg version with the two plates as about DR 20 front and DR 4 rear.

The SAPI Inserts are listed as 2 lb/plate. But really weight 4lb/plate.

and a possible minor error:
The US vest at the time was the original version of the OTV and not the improved IOTV. It is only rated to stop 9mm bullets(2d+2/3d-1) without the inserts so should likely have less than the listed DR 12, perhaps DR 10?

Then on to introduction dates.
A note to the effect like you have for other history changes might be good for the following:
The ACH was introduced 2002 in our timeline.
The ESAPI was introduced 2005 in our timeline.
That's more information on the Soviet vest here than I found anywhere else! More than a quick google too, where this thread is the second hit! 20/2* for the front, 5/2* for the rear?

Weights for the SAPI plates changed.

There was an in-play reason "stops 9mm" became DR12 in my group at the time. I can't remember why exactly now, but the original DR8 I had didn't match real world recollections of two of my players. So I am sticking to this.

US body armor upgrades languished in our timeline because of budget constraints which don't occur in the Twilight timeline; thus the early availability of the ACH and ESAPI.
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Old 10-16-2016, 11:08 AM   #34
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

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That's more information on the Soviet vest here than I found anywhere else! More than a quick google too, where this thread is the second hit! 20/2* for the front, 5/2* for the rear?
I would call it solid armor as scale/laminar/jack of plates and other similar armors are counted as rigid armor in LT, and the non rigid part is a small part of the total. The vest is constructed in a similar manner with overlapping plates.

Perhaps it might get the -1 DR vs crushing note from many of them.

Quote:
Weights for the SAPI plates changed.

There was an in-play reason "stops 9mm" became DR12 in my group at the time. I can't remember why exactly now, but the original DR8 I had didn't match real world recollections of two of my players. So I am sticking to this.
I have not seen anywhere clearly defined how much "extra" protection over the specification requirement it provides, just several sources listing the protection against 9mm. And in any case the DR 8 would have been likely too low thus my suggestion of DR 10 matching the requirement. So sure, go ahead with what you think.

Quote:
US body armor upgrades languished in our timeline because of budget constraints which don't occur in the Twilight timeline; thus the early availability of the ACH and ESAPI.
Thus my suggestion to note it like the others you have for some other things.

But it should be noted that there are indeed budget cuts after the cold war even in the revised Twilight 2000 timeline(the one you have as your timeline in the book, as example see year 1993 description), though not as drastic.

But in our timeline ESAPI came much in response to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq where the SAPI was found to be inadequate vs some of the insurgent weapons and was thus a reaction to events. And I think the original OTV/SAPI was only issued starting 1998 or some such in our timeline and in Iraq only the front line troops had the SAPI inserts and that was listed as one of the reasons for for early deaths when other forces like supply troops came under insurgent fire so there was a rush to produce many more.

But including them is fine as Twilight 2000 is alternate history, I just tend to be a "bit" pedantic... :)
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Old 10-16-2016, 11:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

The split DR for the Soviet vest is because the plate is rigid, but the nylon isn't. Solid 20, flexible 2.

I included the armor upgrades because of a conversation at an open house Reed Knight was giving.

The thrust of the conversation is the tech was ready, but there weren't any customers to justify investing into production.

Nothing like a war to create customers for armor!

With Cold War money still flowing, there would have been such customers years earlier. I know we kept hearing about the PASGT vest replacement in my line unit. A replacement that didn't materialize until many years after I was out of the Army.

I figure if we give the G11 the benefit of the doubt, we're on relatively solid speculative ground with body armor. Besides, GURPS is BRUTAL with firearms and the players need everything they can get.
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Old 10-16-2016, 11:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

Are you looking for critiques /editing / recommendations? If so:

Yeah, I think no ESAPI, too. I would also propose removing the M1A3 Abrams II "Giraffe". It never happened. It was never even considered, for that matter- it's pure fiction on GDW's part. And you're clearly making adjustments for real life happenings if you're including the M240 and dropping the "Giraffe"-like T90.

I definitely would believe the M8 gun happening if the Cold War continued, though. Hell, the airborne guys said it met all of their requirements and they wanted it badly, but budget cuts. Conversely IRL the Stingray tank only sold to Singapore with the last delivery in 1990 so it's probably a lot less likely, but if the tooling was mothballed and the US was desperate, sure, they could open production again- and a lot cheaper than the incredibly high-tech M1.

On that subject, you need the M1, not just the M1A1. I might throw the BTR-60 in there too. It also seems likely that the M60 and T-55/T-62/T-64 would be coming out of mothballs. Otherwise, I generally think you have all of the important vehicles. (I could definitely keep listing ones I'd like to see, though, if you like.)

I'd seriously consider including the M47 Dragon. It wasn't wasn't retired until 2001, and we still have them mothballed. Yes, in a mechanized European was it's deficiencies would be starkly revealed- thus speeding procurement of the Javelin- but it would still be cheap and easy to manufacture and still quite effective against lesser ATVs and technicals. National Guard units would almost certainly have fielded them at the very least.

I can't tell if you're including only stuff that isn't in High-Tech or not. If not then the RPG-7 seems like a pretty glaring omission. And almost everyone in NATO used the Carl Gustav except the US.

With a Surgery skill of 14, your Doctor template is a friggin trauma surgeon. Was that your intent? Physician-16 also makes him almost an outright genius. You might want to make a couple of lenses for that. But I'm a surgeon, so maybe I'm just sensitive to this.

What edition of GURPS is this for? Some of your templates list languages as skills, but in 4e they are advantages.

Including the practical differences between burning petroleum, ethanol, or methanol in your vehicle would be pretty key. I think there is something about it in other GURPS supplements somewhere.

You might consider throwing in more calibers for the civilian Mauser hunting rifles and the Winchester Model 70. I'd also add the Remington 700, at the very least. I always bemoaned the unsatisfying dearth of weapon options for civilians in T2K.

Last edited by acrosome; 10-16-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 10-16-2016, 11:56 AM   #37
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

I tried to avoid including stuff that's in High Tech. Yes, it does make for some apparent glaring omissions.

Even when I was in the M1(IP) days were numbered and all of the original M1 were gone. Ten years later, weren't none because the IP is just a rebarrel away from being an M1A1 (and the ammo storage changes). Many of them were.

The Giraffe is an iconic item from the original game to me. I know it was considered because I've actually touched the Abrams TTB! http://warfaretech.blogspot.com/2015...-unmanned.html

I agonized on dropping the T-90, and ultimately did so because the Russians were a LOT farther behind than we thought they were in 1985 or even 1995.
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Old 10-16-2016, 12:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z09SS View Post
The split DR for the Soviet vest is because the plate is rigid, but the nylon isn't. Solid 20, flexible 2.
Ah. that is not how armor is normally described in Gurps 20/2* would normally imply that the whole armor is flexible. And the plates, while not full "torso" in real life cover more area than some of the other inserts that are given full "torso" chest coverage. So I would list it something like DR 20F/4R.

Quote:
I included the armor upgrades because of a conversation at an open house Reed Knight was giving.

The thrust of the conversation is the tech was ready, but there weren't any customers to justify investing into production.

Nothing like a war to create customers for armor!
From my understanding the there is really not much difference between the SAPI and ESAPI as far as technology goes. The ESAPI is mostly just thicker...

Quote:
With Cold War money still flowing, there would have been such customers years earlier. I know we kept hearing about the PASGT vest replacement in my line unit. A replacement that didn't materialize until many years after I was out of the Army.
That was my point. In the original Twilight 2000 rules the cold war kept going. In the 2.0 rules the cold war ended in between and the text you have in the books seems to use the 2.0 rules timeline.

Quote:
I figure if we give the G11 the benefit of the doubt, we're on relatively solid speculative ground with body armor. Besides, GURPS is BRUTAL with firearms and the players need everything they can get.
As I said, it is fully fine to include them as TW2000 is alternate history.

Edit: Thus my original suggestion to include them but with a comment indicating that real life dates of service are later.
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Old 10-16-2016, 01:02 PM   #39
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z09SS View Post
I tried to avoid including stuff that's in High Tech. Yes, it does make for some apparent glaring omissions.
I thought that might be it, but then you list the AKs and M16s, and a whole lot of other stuff that's in High-Tech. So I wasn't sure. If the criterium is how vital a weapon is to the setting then the RPG-7 is probably ubiquitous enough that you should throw it in there, too, though. $0.02.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z09SS View Post
The Giraffe is an iconic item from the original game to me. I know it was considered because I've actually touched the Abrams TTB! http://warfaretech.blogspot.com/2015...-unmanned.html
I always thought that the Giraffe was silly as hell, even when T2K 1e came out. Not the concept of an unmanned turret- just the ridiculous height of the one on the Giraffe. And I severely doubted that one would be fielded by the time setting. But it's your product, and it's awesome! The M1 debate is pretty pointless anyway. I have never ever heard of a T2K party that got to start with one...

I truly dislike the weird stuff like the LAV-75, and the laser ADA, though. I wasn't so much interested in the science fiction aspect- just the military post-apoc, which was so revolutionary at the time. (GDW always had awesome concepts- just poorly executed mechanics.)

The Soviets never threw anything away, though. Their older tanks would be fielded. And heck even today upgraded T-55s make up most of some national armies.

How do you do starting wealth and equipment purchase? Did I miss it in my skimming? I assume that 100% of wealth can be used to purchase "adventuring equipment?" And I see something about a "patron roll" to get vehicles? You might want to include some civilian body armor for North American campaigns- I assume that police armor would have been desirable.

Damn. Now I have to stat myself as a T2K character... When did they mobilize the reserves? 1996? I wouldn't get to graduate from college- that was 1997... What happened to 99th ARCOM? :) Well, actually I was a Russia-targeted SIGINT guy, so I might well get dragged back to active duty elsewhere, I guess. I would have been rather busy after 1991 until I got out in 1993. Just back from the Gulf, and the coup against Yeltsin succeeds... dammit. I note that your Intelligence Analyst template lacks the skill Electronics Operation (Electronic Warfare). I would need that. Should you throw it in as an optional skill? This template and some others also need Security Clearance advantage. Though, in T2K that might actually mean nothing, or just be a quirk.

EDIT- I'm reading more comprehensively now, and I found some typos.

In the timeline, in 1990, it's RSFSR, not RSFSS. Unless something got butterflied.

There's a missing period on the third line from the bottom on page 2, in the 1992 timeline: "...strikes demanding political autonomy and an eventual union with Romania Riots are suppressed by Soviet MVD troops..."

There's one in 1996, too: "The Romanians conduct mass arrests of Magyars throughout Romania Police sweeps are met with armed resistance ..." A little later on the spelling changes to "Rumania", once.

Then another period: "The Ukraine also recognizes the incorporation of Moldavia into Romania NATO responds shortly thereafter..."

Phill Gramm should be spelled Phil Gramm (one L in Phil).

In 1997: "...promising to intervene of Greece's side if NATO tries to tip the balance in Turkey's favor." and "At the same time, the limited use of tactical nuclear weapons, in the increasing numbers of Soviet reserves, and the withdrawal of the Yugoslavians cause the Romanian front to collapse."

In 1999, I presume this 'with' should be a 'the': "In other areas, with security the military unit provides to its civilians was from the unit itself, a post-nuclear version of the ancient "protection" racket." You also mix present and past tense a bit.

Last edited by acrosome; 10-16-2016 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: Converting Twilight 2000 for use with GURPS 4e

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
Are you looking for critiques /editing / recommendations? If so:

Yeah, I think no ESAPI, too. I would also propose removing the M1A3 Abrams II "Giraffe". It never happened. It was never even considered, for that matter- it's pure fiction on GDW's part. And you're clearly making adjustments for real life happenings if you're including the M240 and dropping the "Giraffe"-like T90.

I definitely would believe the M8 gun happening if the Cold War continued, though. Hell, the airborne guys said it met all of their requirements and they wanted it badly, but budget cuts. Conversely IRL the Stingray tank only sold to Singapore with the last delivery in 1990 so it's probably a lot less likely, but if the tooling was mothballed and the US was desperate, sure, they could open production again- and a lot cheaper than the incredibly high-tech M1.

On that subject, you need the M1, not just the M1A1. I might throw the BTR-60 in there too. It also seems likely that the M60 and T-55/T-62/T-64 would be coming out of mothballs. Otherwise, I generally think you have all of the important vehicles. (I could definitely keep listing ones I'd like to see, though, if you like.)

I'd seriously consider including the M47 Dragon. It wasn't wasn't retired until 2001, and we still have them mothballed. Yes, in a mechanized European was it's deficiencies would be starkly revealed- thus speeding procurement of the Javelin- but it would still be cheap and easy to manufacture and still quite effective against lesser ATVs and technicals. National Guard units would almost certainly have fielded them at the very least.

I can't tell if you're including only stuff that isn't in High-Tech or not. If not then the RPG-7 seems like a pretty glaring omission. And almost everyone in NATO used the Carl Gustav except the US.

With a Surgery skill of 14, your Doctor template is a friggin trauma surgeon. Was that your intent? Physician-16 also makes him almost an outright genius. You might want to make a couple of lenses for that. But I'm a surgeon, so maybe I'm just sensitive to this.

What edition of GURPS is this for? Some of your templates list languages as skills, but in 4e they are advantages.

Including the practical differences between burning petroleum, ethanol, or methanol in your vehicle would be pretty key. I think there is something about it in other GURPS supplements somewhere.

You might consider throwing in more calibers for the civilian Mauser hunting rifles and the Winchester Model 70. I'd also add the Remington 700, at the very least. I always bemoaned the unsatisfying dearth of weapon options for civilians in T2K.
65 Giraffes existed for testing at one point, don't know how many remain at the proving ground. One could make them available to troops returning from Europe. 1/4 to 1/3 and the rest stripped for parts and/or retrofitted to standard configuration. The same area held the test LAV-75's.
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