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Old 10-12-2017, 09:55 AM   #1
Hellboy
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Default Reverse Grip for Kicks

Was rereading MA111 and appreciating it's tactical versatility some. Was thinking: you obviously do not grip a kick but would it be that bad to apply this option to kicking? +1 to damage in exchange for -1 to leg parry (pg 123 since it is done using brawling or karate) with that leg seems interesting. I think this could reflect how most people probably cannot leg parry as competently. As might the -2 to DX (-1 to parry) from the grappling "using your legs" rule if applied to striking.

This would also mean kicking range is reduced to C unless to the rear in which case you are doing a wild swing back kick.

I guess it could be applied to punching too. The -1 to parry for brawl/karate (-2 for all other unarmed parries) would be a lot harsher though since people probably tend to rely more on arm parrying than leg parrying too.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

It depends on what do you mean by "being bad". Would it be too powerful compared to other moves? I don't think so. On the strong side, but not game-breaking (though the enemy should be automatically aware of the defensive penalty, so the move is actually risky). But having too many options of pure game mechanics might get pretty bad, causing:
  • decision paralysis,
  • book checking,
  • and cracks on the suspension of disbelief.
You know, how is this wild swing back kick different from the usual one, descriptively? I'd probably consider this as a feature of a fighting style, but not a combat option. But that's just me, Indecisive (12).

As for people not being competent at leg parries: I think it's just a matter of it being exclusive for trained people (it doesn't default to DX parry). The way I've learned it hand parries are just as hard as leg parries.

PS Also, as leg parries are for trained people only, I wouldn't allow this option on DX kicks. This -1 has to apply to actual parry score.
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Old 10-12-2017, 07:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

Not allowing Leg Parry the untrained feels right for attacks targeting Leg or Foot...

Moving the thigh in the way of an attacked aimed at the groin feels pretty instinctive. Maybe allow this at half of (DX-3) so combat training is always better but it is still possible?

Or maybe what I am thinking if could just be a Wait > Stop Thrust throwing a Knee using the Kick technique?
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

You could allow a DX-based leg parry without any penalties but in this exclusive situation only. Or just call it a Dodge. It doesn't seem like a wait. As you said, more of an instinctive reaction.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:14 AM   #5
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Was rereading MA111 and appreciating it's tactical versatility some. Was thinking: you obviously do not grip a kick but would it be that bad to apply this option to kicking? +1 to damage in exchange for -1 to leg parry (pg 123 since it is done using brawling or karate) with that leg seems interesting.
Now tell me what this physically represents.

Reverse Grip is rule to cover a thing I can describe - you are holding the weapon differently. What does the thing you want to do *look like*?

A lot of your rules hacks seem to want to treat the rules as an abstract construct and build from that, rather than understanding them as a playable approximation of something real. If that's the game you want to play, you can do that, but it's not the way the rules were designed to be read or used.

On the more abstract level, I don't think I'd go with this either. Leg parry simply isn't used often enough that a small penalty to it comes remotely close to offsetting a damage bonus for your highest damage unarmed attack. Applying the penalty to all unarmed parries (you're holding your *entire body* in a "reverse grip"), or maybe all dodges (you are holding your leg funny, you clearly can't use your normal footwork) might be OK.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

Conceptually it would be a stance instead of a grip. Which favors power at the cost of reach to the forward and side. The loss of 1 range kicks to front/side is more of the kicker than the penalty to leg parry. Someone able to kick you from the front or side will have a reach advantage.

That said: if using the -2 to parry attacks on the lower body using arms, leg parry does become a bit more useful.

Another issue is to enter or exit the stance requires the same actions as grip alterations. So now there is a waste on Ready maneuver to enjoy the benefit.
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Old 10-13-2017, 10:56 AM   #7
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Conceptually it would be a stance instead of a grip. Which favors power at the cost of reach to the forward and side. The loss of 1 range kicks to front/side is more of the kicker than the penalty to leg parry. Someone able to kick you from the front or side will have a reach advantage.
Seems to overlap a lot with Axe Kick (extra damage, restricted reach, though not in the same axis, defensive penalty (requires Committed Attack)). You might want to consider building it as a technique on that model instead.

Quote:
Another issue is to enter or exit the stance requires the same actions as grip alterations. So now there is a waste on Ready maneuver to enjoy the benefit.
Mostly only an issue if there is a some disadvantage staying in this stance forever (and I really would consider a Dodge or Move penalty for holding your legs funny). Though it is sort of odd for an unarmed skill to require a Ready maneuver - one of the small edges of being unarmed is that first turn action you can try while your opponents are drawing a weapon.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

If I allowed it as a "stance"*, it would be a -2 to all defenses as you are adopting a difficult or outrageous stance or are simply off-balance following the kick.


* Following the notion of it as a Technique, not simply as an option to kicks.


And I agree with malloyd, what you are describing is better built as a variant of Axe Kick, call it Hook or Roundhouse Kick.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Reverse Grip for Kicks

Difficulty to back away (conditional defense penalty ) and beating down guard (subsequent parry penalty) aspects which account for that extra -2 on axe (maybe -3 if the +1 is the height limitl are hard to divide.

Keeping one leg back maybe should impede leg parry with either limb and retreating dodges but hard to envision how it would compromise blocks or arms/weapon parries.

The disadvantage to being in this stance forever is reduced range kicking to front and side, so it is reduced offense in targetable hexes, not just reduced defense.

1 y kicks only work to rear hex. Just like reverse grip with weapons.
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