Questions about Alternate Worldline Design.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

There's no particularly logical way for him to achieve this.

Even just to match the stoneworking abilities of mid-TL1 you need metal tools to cut the stone. Metal tools to work farms. Even metal tools to work wood efficiently.

No metal, no magic, no exotic biotech or other special item equals earrly TL1.

An old (and perhaps _very_ old) TL1 civilization might have a number of TL3 (or higher) developments such as mathematics and animal breeding but they would not be able to match TL3 technology and economics.

You could give your TL3/0 Knights wooden lances and wooden shields and even big fast horses but handcarving wooden stirrups and cutting and sewing saddle leather with stone and bone tools would be heartbreakingly dificult.

It would be _possible_, I do want to emphasize that you _could_ do it without metal tools. I want to cut off a long argument I can see brewing that it is is _possible_. However it wouldn't be either efficient or economically viable.

Some people might say that labor would be cheap. Sort of, individual humans might not be highly valued, but without the metal plows and scythes and so on the food to feed the labor wouldn't be cheap.

Hi there, Fred. I'm perfectly fine with them being inefficient in terms of their tech level, and I'm totally okay with their TL 3 being a bit different looking. I was pretty sure that logically their say medieval europe won't look identical to our worldline, but I was hoping that even with the materials could it be at least similar without being wholly unrecognizable?

You position seems to be that most of the things at TL can be done just not efficiently or economically well? I'm okay with it being inefficient. Specifically what I'm curious to know is what things do you feel would NOT be able to be done at TL 3 with bone, stone tools?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rowan

You position seems to be that most of the things at TL can be done just not efficiently or economically well?

No, my position is that in a totally mundane world without any extraordinary additions a major subtraction of an item such as metal tools makes advancement beyond early TL1 impossible. This is a case where less isn't just different. It's less.

You might have a TL1 that in some ways mimicked features of a higher TL world but it would be TL1.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, my position is that in a totally mundane world without any extraordinary additions a major subtraction of an item such as metal tools makes advancement beyond early TL1 impossible. This is a case where less isn't just different. It's less.

You might have a TL1 that in some ways mimicked features of a higher TL world but it would be TL1.

There are lots of things that you just flat out can't do without metal but a society that's TL 3 in everything that's possible without metal and TL0(Neolithic) with metal isn't TL 1

[David Johnston2]

We need a list of TL 3 things that are possible without metal.

Glass working
Ship building
Gunpowder rockets
Three crop rotation
Horse collars
Wooden legs
Anatomy


The big question as I see it are wind and water mills. Could they in fact be built of wood and bone? Or would they tear themselves apart?

[Flyndaran]

Natural Rubber

[Sindri]

I say make a list of things above TL 0 up to TL 3 that are possible without metal

(mostly draw from Low-Tech ages of technology)
Three-field rotation
Moldboard plow
Specialized breed horses
Distillation
Black powder
Various mathematics
Monasticism
Concrete
Arches
Phalanx warfare
Various kinds of ships
Multiethnic empires
Philosophy
Wheeled vehicles
Writing
Written law
Long distance trade and diplomacy
Large scale stone architecture
Agriculture and irrigation

I'm pretty sure wooden water and windmills are possible.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Sindri

I
Large scale stone architecture.

Working the stone is going to be too much of a pain unless you at at least have some metal chisels. Although concrete could be a workaround...even though the Roman recipe required access to volcanic ash.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

We need a list of TL 3 things that are possible without metal.

Glass working
Ship building
Gunpowder rockets
Three crop rotation
Horse collars
Wooden legs
Anatomy


The big question as I see it are wind and water mills. Could they in fact be built of wood and bone? Or would they tear themselves apart?

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Natural Rubber

Originally Posted by Sindri

I say make a list of things above TL 0 up to TL 3 that are possible without metal

(mostly draw from Low-Tech ages of technology)
Three-field rotation
Moldboard plow
Specialized breed horses
Distillation
Black powder
Various mathematics
Monasticism
Concrete
Arches
Phalanx warfare
Various kinds of ships
Multiethnic empires
Philosophy
Wheeled vehicles
Writing
Written law
Long distance trade and diplomacy
Large scale stone architecture
Agriculture and irrigation

I'm pretty sure wooden water and windmills are possible.

Thank you very much. Your comments have been extremely helpful to me. :)

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Working the stone is going to be too much of a pain unless you at at least have some metal chisels. Although concrete could be a workaround...even though the Roman recipe required access to volcanic ash.

The idea was that between examples like the walls of Jericho and Cyclopean masonry combined with concrete should allow for it. It's not gonna be as good as actual TL 3 masonry, nor as cheap though.

Also add Ceramics to the list.

[David Johnston2]

I would say that IF you can build mills, then a standard of living comparable to TL 3 is available.