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Old 04-30-2012, 01:44 PM   #71
Stripe
 
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Default Re: [DF] Making Bad Temper Bad for Murder Hobos

Okay, I'm sick in bed and the drugs are really kicking in so this will be my last post for several hours.

Wow! I've like, doubled my post count here!

XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Acting suave and debonair (and out of character, what happened to the OPH?) and claim that "good role playing" means he can just automatically succeed at SC rolls, I guess.
I think my last two posts handle this.

About the OPH and the other disad, I just took one and went with it, but a case could be made all the way around.

As long as you're not role playing in a way to circumvent your disadvantage. But, why do that? It's fun! When you have to eat crow over it, then oh well. It happens.

Toodles! XD
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:49 PM   #72
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Default Re: [DF] Making Bad Temper Bad for Murder Hobos

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Okay, I'm sick in bed and the drugs are really kicking in so this will be my last post for several hours.
Well, it's been a pleasure discussing this with you, even if we don't see eye to eye. Hope you feel better soon!
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:50 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
You're talking about winning the battles. I'm saying you don't have to ever win the battles and I've quoted RAW on that fact.

[...]

You're talking about the possibility of winning the battles on a regular basis. At SC 12, that's better than 50% chance your disadvantage isn't effecting your character each time you roll.

If you roll each time it could effect your character, that's just flat bad role playing, RAW.

[...]
Not often, if he has a serious mental or social GURPS disadvantage.
The whole tone here suggests that GURPS disadvantages, as viewed by Stripe, are less characterisation-aids and more fatal flaws that will ruin the life of the character in short order.

The problems I have with that are primarily:

a) In both real life and fiction, there exist a continuum of the majority of potential personality flaws that ranges from harmless foible to suicidal insanity. Having no way to model anything but the most extreme of that range is poor game design.

b) From a roleplaying and gamemastering point of view, a personality flaw that occasionally causes complications is more interesting and desirable than one that will lead to suicide in short order. For optimal fun, I've found that it's better for characters to be slightly flawed, not balls-out insane.

Interpreting disadvantages so that they represent genuine problems that land the characters in trouble from time to time, is therefore a good thing. Interpreting them so that they provide a hard-wired compulsion for the character to always act in a manner guaranteed to make it impossible for him to survive in any society except possibly that of insane mutant cannibal clowns, however, is a bad thing. For one thing, it actually reduces the incentive to roleplay, because it tends to reduce all choices down to not-really-a-choice-at-all, i.e. succumbing to the disadvantage, regardless of situation, motives, goals or mood.

c) From a logical point of view, the point value of a disadvantage should not be lessened for Self-Control number if that number does not represent a valid way of preventing the disadvantage from causing distressing and potentially game-ending catastrophes. By Stripe's interpretation, all disadvantages should have more or less the same value, which seems to be [infinite points], because if a character has a disadvantage, he will be unplayable in anything but a silly campaign.

d) For real people, it tends to be at least possible to restrain oneself from giving in to even the most crippling personality flaw, if the situation warrants it. In a life or death situation, this goes double or triple. People who have absolutely no control over their reaction to and action subsequent to their impulses, compulsions or phobias, are not playable characters, they are mental patients who require padded cells and constant vigilance by trained professionals.
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Last edited by Icelander; 04-30-2012 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:52 PM   #74
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No! RAW clearly states, and I once again quote, "You never have to try a self-control roll – you can always give in willingly, and it is good roleplaying to do so."
That doesn't mean that if you choose to wave the roll you can choose to succeed at it. It means that if you choose to waive the roll you automatically fail. That's what "you can always give in willingly" means. If you choose to fail it, you therefore suffer the same consequences as though if you rolled and failed.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:11 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
a) In both real life and fiction, there exist a continuum of the majority of potential personality flaws that ranges from harmless foible to suicidal insanity. Having no way to model anything but the most extreme of that range is poor game design.

b) From a roleplaying and gamemastering point of view, a personality flaw that occasionally causes complications is more interesting and desirable than one that will lead to suicide in short order. For optimal fun, I've found that it's better for characters to be slightly flawed, not balls-out insane.

Interpreting disadvantages so that they represent genuine problems that land the characters in trouble from time to time, is therefore a good thing. Interpreting them so that they provide a hard-wired compulsion for the character to always act in a manner guaranteed to make it impossible for him to survive in any society except possibly that of insane mutant cannibal clowns, however, is a bad thing. [snip]

d) For real people, it tends to be at least possible to restrain oneself from giving in to even the most crippling personality flaw, if the situation warrants it. In a life or death situation, this goes double or triple. People who have absolutely no control over their reaction to and action subsequent to their impulses, compulsions or phobias, are not playable characters, they are mental patients who require padded cells and constant vigilance by trained professionals.
So you advocate that GURPS games ought to include Quirks?
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:11 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc View Post
So you advocate that GURPS games ought to include Quirks?
If you play Mental Disadvantages by the rules, but ignore the absurd snippet of guidance where it suggests that a good roleplayer doesn't actually use those rules, you can use them on functional characters. They may be somewhat extreme personality traits, but not crippling. At least, not all crippling.

If you make all Self Control rolls equivalent to 'No roll, fail automatically', then you can't. Also, the point values for those disadvantages look really stupid that way.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:33 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you play Mental Disadvantages by the rules, but ignore the absurd snippet of guidance where it suggests that a good roleplayer doesn't actually use those rules, you can use them on functional characters. They may be somewhat extreme personality traits, but not crippling. At least, not all crippling.

If you make all Self Control rolls equivalent to 'No roll, fail automatically', then you can't. Also, the point values for those disadvantages look really stupid that way.
That snippet of advice smells of trying to show newcomers what roleplaying might look like, rather than being some kind of canon for us veterans, especially when I consider how old said snippet is.
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:42 PM   #78
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No! RAW clearly states, and I once again quote, "You never have to try a self-control roll – you can always give in willingly, and it is good roleplaying to do so."
It also never says that it's bad roleplaying to roll. The roll wouldn't exist if the intent wasn't that you'd use it at least on occasion.
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:41 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you play Mental Disadvantages by the rules, but ignore the absurd snippet of guidance where it suggests that a good roleplayer doesn't actually use those rules, you can use them on functional characters. They may be somewhat extreme personality traits, but not crippling. At least, not all crippling.
I think that all that sentence is trying to say is that often a character will chose to give in. If you are Greedy, you won't resist most of the time when you have a chance to make money, but you probably would try with a bonus if it involves selling out your teammates against your SoD (Adventuring Buddies). A Bad-Tempered noble will likely let out his temper on servants and commoners and horses, but try to resist when he is facing his fiancee's father or the king's officials. And so on ... Self-control rolls should be used when the character would try to resist his urges, just not every time the character faces temptation.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:01 PM   #80
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Default Re: [DF] Making Bad Temper Bad for Murder Hobos

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Most players, IME, role play voluntarily their disadvantages without rolling SC. When I tell them to roll SC, they dutifully do so, but maybe about a third of the time choose to waive a successful roll and succumb anyway.
That's basically how it works with me too. If you roleplay it (say, throwing a fit when someone irritates you because you have Bad Temper), then good on you. That's appropriate for any level of Bad Temper including the Quirk level. If I think that someone is doing something that might trigger your bad temper, I can demand that you roll. If you have it as a quirk, you can simply choose not to succumb. If you have a control rating and you succeed, you can choose not to succumb. If you have a control rating and you fail, you must succumb. If you choose not to succumb too often, I might question why you have the quirk/disadvantage at all, but ultimately the disadvantage is priced around the SC for a reason.

The "internal struggle" previously mentioned only exists at the quirk level, or when the SC check is passed. If you fail the SC check, you have no internal struggle: you go straight into the disad.

So, if you figure your character will always be angry whenever I call for the check, you might as well take the SC 6 and get as many points for the disad as you can. If you want to dabble in it and maybe have a risk of losing control, but keeping a lid on things when it counts, take a 15. If you're not sure and/or hate halvesies (because -7 from Lecherousness or what have you is annoying), take the 12.

I'm pretty sure that's RAW, though.
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