No Active Defense if Pinned, Yes?

[mook]

Just a quickie confirmation: a character who is Pinned and fails to break free from the grapple is completely at his attacker's mercy for at least 10 seconds before he can try to break free again? Can't even use active defenses?

Thanks. My brain is a bit mushy at the moment.

[B9anders]

yup. If the pinner has a knife, he can effectively just declare 'I kill her with a slit throat' and be done with it.

Even without such a weapon, ten all-out telegraphed blows to the skull or some such ought to mean game over.

[mook]

Brutal, I love it.

"Remember kids! Don't ignore grappling skills!"

[PK]

Yeah, basically "pinned = you lose," period. It's the reason why even a horde of "cannon fodder" like zombies or peasants can still be absolutely deadly against a group of experienced and powerful heroes. Get enough of 'em grappling you, and eventually they will get a lucky die roll and take you down. Once that's done, eventually you will fail your roll in the Regular Contest as they succeed, and you're pinned. At that point, you're basically their chew toy. :)

[oma]

Is that rule in any way realistic?? It seems that it is unfairly weighted in favor of the grappler. If I were pinned by someone in a life and death struggle, I cannot see how I would be unable to fight back for 10 seconds.

I love the fact that many GURPS rules do a good job of representing reality while still being playable. This does not seem to be the case here. What is the thought behind why I am UNABLE to do anything for 10 seconds while pinned? Can I not continue to struggle effectively? Maybe at LEAST every 3 seconds while I marshal my strength?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by oma

Is that rule in any way realistic?? It seems that it is unfairly weighted in favor of the grappler. If I were pinned by someone in a life and death struggle, I cannot see how I would be unable to fight back for 10 seconds.

I love the fact that many GURPS rules do a good job of representing reality while still being playable. This does not seem to be the case here. What is the thought behind why I am UNABLE to do anything for 10 seconds while pinned? Can I not continue to struggle effectively? Maybe at LEAST every 3 seconds while I marshal my strength?

To clarify:
First you have to grapple the target (target can dodge).
Then the target gets a chance to Break Free.
Then you must succeed in a Takedown. If you failed, try again next turn (and you might be on the ground now!).
Then again the target gets a chance to Break Free.
Then when the target is down and grappled, you attempt a Pin, which requires you to succeed and the target to fail a roll. Should you fail, or should the target succeed, no matter how mildly, there is no Pin.

[Kromm]

As vicky_molokh just said, a pin is a process that takes at least three turns to achieve (grapple, takedown, and finally pin), assuming that you make all your rolls and your target doesn't defend against the initial grapple, or break free or incapacitate you before you can move to the next step. And the pin as such is a Regular Contest, which generally takes several turns in itself. If, after all that, you end up pinned . . . well, the grappler worked for it. I'd say the rules are seriously weighted against him, if anything; he has to use three or more turns to achieve his goal, while you can strike back every turn. If you fail to defend against the grapple, fail to break free multiple times, and lose all the Contests, then you deserve what you get.

Remember that a GURPS pin isn't the high-school wrestling move, but full control. Achieving it is intended to be fight-ending, and a nonlethal alternative to beating someone unconscious or killing him. It isn't intended to be an intermediate step in combat, part of the give and take. If someone achieves a pin despite all odds, it's as "fair" as achieving a knockout after throwing strikes for three or more seconds.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by oma

Is that rule in any way realistic?? It seems that it is unfairly weighted in favor of the grappler. If I were pinned by someone in a life and death struggle, I cannot see how I would be unable to fight back for 10 seconds.

You should realize that a pin is not ongoing ground combat! The pin comes after one fighter has already lost the fight and the winner got (more or less) the total control over the other person, who is pinned on the ground.

In a traditional Martial Art normally the pinned person would lie on the belly with the arms turned on their back in a (painful) lock, the shoulder being fixed on the ground or something like that. Moreover the winner takes control over the body movement of the person on the ground and can freely use his knees or arms, hands or a weapon against the head or other vital parts of the defeated person to stop him trying anything or "end" it quickly if needed. Being on the ground in that way the pinned victim normally feels that he doesn't have a real chance anymore.

[PK]

Originally Posted by oma

Is that rule in any way realistic?? It seems that it is unfairly weighted in favor of the grappler. If I were pinned by someone in a life and death struggle, I cannot see how I would be unable to fight back for 10 seconds.

I love the fact that many GURPS rules do a good job of representing reality while still being playable. This does not seem to be the case here. What is the thought behind why I am UNABLE to do anything for 10 seconds while pinned? Can I not continue to struggle effectively? Maybe at LEAST every 3 seconds while I marshal my strength?

What GURPS calls a pin refers to the attacking grappler achieving full and complete control over the defender. Basically, the defender has lost -- he grappled, he was taken down, and he has been put into a position where he is no longer a threat in any way; the fight is basically over. He can still try to struggle free, but at this point, he's more of a nuisance to the attacker than anything else. The 10-second rule helps represent that -- it means the attacker doesn't have to waste effort dealing with the nuisance still trying to deny that he's lost. If the defender were allowed to try Breaking Free every turn, it would significantly increase his odds of doing so to the point where it'd be unrealistic.

[kenclary]

GURPS Pin is a very large abstraction of a (potentially) very complex situation. It is a simplistic, coarse, and cinematic mechanic (the same can be said of many combat techniques in the Basic Set, though Pin is far more coarse than most). It is reasonable for game balance purposes: a non-lethal way to end a fight through total physical domination.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

If the defender were allowed to try Breaking Free every turn, it would significantly increase his odds of doing so to the point where it'd be unrealistic.

It would be different. Realism is another issue entirely.