Questions about Alternate Worldline Design.

[Rowan]

So, I've been tinkering around with a Farther Alternate worldline in and around 883 AD. I'm tossing around the idea of a TL 3 world, but with a much lower instance of metals. Mostly, I'm looking for the worldline to be forced to adopt materials like stone and obsidian for warfare, and perhaps bronze and brass for things like coinage or maybe general use materials? I'm not sure how viable the idea is. specifically what I'm wondering is, how plausible would it be to have a farther alternate worldline with most of the metals missing? Basically I'm looking to wipe out use of iron, steel, adoption of silver, gold. Basically most metals besides say metals used to make the aforementioned alloy metals.

Is this plan viable? am I barking up the wrong tree, and have I missed any potential problems by making most of the metals on this worldline absent or in such low quantities that they're not reachable?

[vierasmarius]

If copper and its alloys are available, they are likely to see use as weapons and tools. I suspect that gold and silver were used so frequently as currency is because they were largely useless in practical roles. If you want stone and obsidian to be used for weapons, you'll need to limit copper as well. What little of it that's available would likely show up in the hands of the richest warriors, as Good-quality daggers, spears and axes.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

If copper and its alloys are available, they are likely to see use as weapons and tools. I suspect that gold and silver were used so frequently as currency is because they were largely useless in practical roles. If you want stone and obsidian to be used for weapons, you'll need to limit copper as well. What little of it that's available would likely show up in the hands of the richest warriors, as Good-quality daggers, spears and axes.

That's a good idea. Does this marginalization apply only to copper, or would I need to do likewise to tin and zinc? I'm wondering what these folks might use for coinage if their isn't a dearth of available metals.

[Idiosyncratic]

Bronze will definitely not be used for normal stuff. Remember, bronze was expensive. The whole reason that iron was such an advantage was that it's extremely common - Far more so than tin and copper.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Rowan

That's a good idea. Does this marginalization apply only to copper, or would I need to do likewise to tin and zinc? I'm wondering what these folks might use for coinage if their isn't a dearth of available metals.

As far as I know, tin and zinc are less useful for tools and weapons on their own. They might be used as coinage. However, I also like the idea of using small gemstones as a currency.

Something else you should consider is whether you'll include fantastical elements. For example, if Adamant (Fantasy pg 22) or similar "Essential" stone is available, either naturally or through magic, then stone weapons could become much more resilient. The exact effects are up to you of course, but it could justify making Good-quality blades without an armor divisor, and potentially full-length stone swords. Stone Armor (Low Tech pg 106) would also benefit greatly from Adamant. Of course, such weapons and armor will be far more expensive than their metallic counterparts; Fantasy recommends x30 cost (CF +29).

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Idiosyncratic

Bronze will definitely not be used for normal stuff. Remember, bronze was expensive. The whole reason that iron was such an advantage was that it's extremely common - Far more so than tin and copper.

So, even with a lack of extremely common iron, you feel bronze and perhaps later brass would not be used because of expense? Even in the face of a lack of other viable metals? If that's so, then are you saying it's still a viable option to have say bronze and brass hanging around, but still have the societies making more common use of stone, bone and obsidian materials for tools and weapons?

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

As far as I know, tin and zinc are less useful for tools and weapons on their own. They might be used as coinage. However, I also like the idea of using small gemstones as a currency.

Something else you should consider is whether you'll include fantastical elements. For example, if Adamant (Fantasy pg 22) or similar "Essential" stone is available, either naturally or through magic, then stone weapons could become much more resilient. The exact effects are up to you of course, but it could justify making Good-quality blades without an armor divisor, and potentially full-length stone swords. Stone Armor (Low Tech pg 106) would also benefit greatly from Adamant. Of course, such weapons and armor will be far more expensive than their metallic counterparts; Fantasy recommends x30 cost (CF +29).

Originally, the setting included some fantastic elements, but I tossed them in favor of a more mundane setting as I've several other settings with Fantastic elements.

As to small gemstones. Could those be viable as wide scale currency? I know the ancient Chinese used to deal with shells, but had some difficulty in keeping up with the availability of the shells.

What about bone? Porcelain? Bamboo?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Rowan

As to small gemstones. Could those be viable as wide scale currency? I know the ancient Chinese used to deal with shells, but had some difficulty in keeping up with the availability of the shells.

What about bone? Porcelain? Bamboo?

One common way to set a value for currency was to use a material that is naturally rare (but not too rare) such as gold or silver. However, many cultures, including "primitive" ones, have used arbitrary counters for wealth, backed by social contract rather than inherrent rarity. Carved stones, beads and shells were all used by pre-metallic cultures, and our own paper currency has long since been divorced from the bullion that it orginally represented. In your fictitious society, as long as the currency is consistent it shouldn't spark much disbelief. And of course, currency is something that you can spend a lot of time thinking about, but players tend to gloss over; they want to know if they can afford a better sword, not how to convert from Eastern-tribe carved seashells to Western-tribe beaded feathers.

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by Rowan

I'm not sure how viable the idea is. specifically what I'm wondering is, how plausible would it be to have a farther alternate worldline with most of the metals missing?

It depends on what kind of plausibility you're looking for. If you're asking if it's plausible for a metal-poor planet like this to form in the first place, then the answer may be no. Stars that are low in iron are less likely to have planets (see here), and while we have no way to detect what the exoplanets around those stars are made of, it's a good bet that iron-rich stars have iron-rich planets.

Of course, that doesn't mean that iron-poor stars never have planets. But now you run into the problem of what kind of planets they have. I can't find any references, but it seems likely to me that the planets that form under metal-poor conditions are more likely to be gas giants than terrestrial planets. Perhaps some other forum member knows more about this.

On the other hand, if you're not worried about astrophysical plausibility and only want to know about anthropological plausibility, then, as far as I know, sure. The Aztecs seem to have gotten by with very limited metal use as far as tools and weapons go, and I don't suppose doing without metal for ornaments would have prevented them from building their empire.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

It depends on what kind of plausibility you're looking for. If you're asking if it's plausible for a metal-poor planet like this to form in the first place, then the answer may be no..

Having an iron ore and there being a late impact during Earth's formation with another body with an iron core appears to have played a key role in Earth having water amd an oxygen atmosphere.

Also, a _lot_ of stuff doesn't work out if you make Earth less dense by having few if any metals. You'd be looking at the Moon's density rather than Earth.

TL3 without metals would have to be _highly_ variant with things like exotic biotech materials substituting for the meal implements. No fantastic elements and no metal just means TL1 at most.

Essential Stone is about as good as iron as bulk armor per unit of thickness and could probaly substitute for iron n many uses with magical shaping.

[Curmudgeon]

It's viable and as both real history books and 3e GURPS Low Tech have indicated, you don't even have to be iron-poor.
The problem lays out as follows, copper isn't rare but it's not particularly common either. It's comparatively hard to work, brittle (shatters easily) and rather soft (doesn't keep an edge particularly well) in comparison to iron. On the plus side, it's not that hard to smelt.
The two alloys of copper are bronze, which requires tin, and brass, which requires zinc. Tin is a much less abundant metal than copper, which was one of the things that made bronze expensive but bronze is somehat less brittle and keeps a better edge than copper. Brass is hard, fairly brittle and doesn't show much in the way of visible corrosion. Another property of brass that you may find a use for is the fact that it doesn't spark when struck. As many tools as possible for working around gunpowder were made of brass for just that reason. Which is a point to remember, early cannons were made of brass not iron, so a lack of iron won't keep gunpowder weapons from being developed, though it may make them rarer on the battlefield, which may make them more decisive when they do show up.
Iron, until the combination of charcoal and the bellows pump come along, can't be smelted because it can't be heated enough. Until it can be smelted, you're limited to meteoric iron which is a rare substance.
Iron aside, these metals are in sufficiently short supply that their use is limited to things that are shortsword size or smaller, such as spearheads, axe-heads and arrowheads.
If you drop silver, gold and iron, you'tre left with the other four classic metals, copper, lead, tin, zinc and maybe quicksilver (mercury), assuming you don't want it to vanish along with silver. Lead will be a leading cause of heavy metal poisoning, as will mercury, if you decide to keep it around.
Gemstones may be a late-breaking development, at least a lot of the ones we regard as precious stones. Unless they're polished, a lot of them aren't particularly attractive, so you might be waiting a long time after someone gets the idea of polishing stones to enhance their appearance before someone wonders, "Gee, I wonder what this black stone [diamond] would look like if I polished it up?"
For an obscure, esoteric money system, there was a tribe on a Pacific island that used man-sized rocks as currency. No one was lugging them off, so your wealth was safe from thieves. Title to a given rock changed hands when payment was required.