Need some help with TL of warhammer 40k

[Coren]

So I've recently decided to run a warhammer 40k game. I don't like the rules of the rpg game so I came back to gurps.

However, the tech level of the setting can only be described as a complete mess.
technology for the common man is seen as magic. Nobody outside of the techpriests have any broad knowledge in technology. Fixing, repairing and utilizing tech is all done through rote by them.

that part is easy enough. Just use the normal rules. Basic tech level of 3-4 with people from feral worlds just taking the lower tech level advantage. With training for higher tech level dx based skills being freely available. Give them an IQ based roll to let them do basic maintenance or repairs on their equipment.

but when it comes to the techpriests it's slightly harder. They need IQ based skills to reflect their skill with engineering and building, designing and repairing the high-tech equipment that the imperium of man works on. But while the tech priests have more basic knowledge about technology then the common man. Even they depend heavily on rote to do their job. And that rote knowledge is heavily scattered across the different forge worlds of the empire. With only the higher ranked people in the order being able to understand tech enough to really do anything even resembling research into the field.

one world might be able to build plasma weaponry and another one can't. But that other forge world has other fractionally knowledge that the other forgeworlds might not have. even forge worlds who are able to build similar equipment might have more or less knowledge the other's in the same field. (One forge world might lack the ability to make the cooling systems as good as the other. While that forgeworld might not be able to contain the plasma as well,etc)

So any advice on how to handle such widely varying abilities in technology?

[Mailanka]

Choose a default TL for the setting (most people who run 40k in GURPS seem to focus on TL 9: It has gyrocs and "stub guns" and some primitive chemical lasers with powerpacks, and power-armor and basic genetic engineering. Incidentally, there's a pyramid article that has chainswords in it, though it doesn't call them that, of course. I can look that up for you, if you like). Things are priced around that. If we decide that a power sword is the same as a force sword (I'm not saying that's the correct conversion, it's just an example), then it's +2 TL, which means it's worth 4x as much as the listed price. People from primitive worlds have a lower TL: if you come from a medieval world with a TL of 4, then you have Low TL -5 [-25]. There are already rules for handling how low or high TL characters interact with items of another tech-level (though there's another pyramid article that has alternate rules for handling gun familiarity that applies across TLs, which might yield more satisfactory results for a game like this).

I don't know if there's such an advantage as "TL familiarity," but it might explain something like a Tech-Priest, who might have "High TL +2 [10]" but either have "Engineer!" as a wild card skill and ignore all TL penalties for lower or higher TL, or have a familiarity with most Imperial TL 9 technology (something that specific might be a perk)

Edit: If you're worried about people being able to build X that's above their TL, but nothing else ("I know the secrets to power-field technologies, but I can't build a warp engine, and I can't build a plasma cannon") you might handle that with perks, representing a fraction portion of the High TL advantage. I'd say 1 point per +1 TL for a narrow field. It's effectively a -80% limitation on the advantage. How broad that can be is up to you. "A single item" strikes me as narrow, but perk-level stuff often is, and if someone wants to know how to make 5+ TL 11 items, he might be better off simply buying High TL +2.

[johndallman]

I don't know the setting well, since all my knowledge of it comes from Ian Watson's novels, but here's a single cent's worth.

You need some culturally mandated mental disadvantage that inhibits invention, research and creative thought in general. Hidebound is the nearest thing; you might want to increase its effects and point value.

I suspect that enough knowledge has been lost that the technological experts are operating at a TL one below what's actually needed for their work. They overcome their TL penalties with Hyperspecialisation perks, extra time, and manuals, but that leaves them working by the book, and at large penalties for anything that isn't in the book.

You also ought to rigidly limit high IQ in this campaign. Requiring all IQ above 10 to be paid for by mental disadvantages, each of at last -10 points, should keep things in-genre.

No, I don't like WH40K much as a setting.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by johndallman

You also ought to rigidly limit high IQ in this campaign. Requiring all IQ above 10 to be paid for by mental disadvantages, each of at last -10 points, should keep things in-genre.

No, I don't like WH40K much as a setting.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. There are highly social, or highly political, or highly strategic, or highly deductive characters in Warhammer 40k. If you want to limit invention, simply disallow the Gadgeteer advantage, and encourage Hidebound. That means people have to invent everything the hard way, and they're at a penalty to do so. Then, of course, you also have a group (the Inquisition) who runs around crushing people who play with technology they don't like... which is the real reason the TL never seems to expand. Well, that and the Gadget Side-Effect table from Warhammer 40k would be full of "Whoops, accidentally opened a rift to hell again. Well crap."

[Coren]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Choose a default TL for the setting (most people who run 40k in GURPS seem to focus on TL 9: It has gyrocs and "stub guns" and some primitive chemical lasers with powerpacks, and power-armor and basic genetic engineering. Incidentally, there's a pyramid article that has chainswords in it, though it doesn't call them that, of course. I can look that up for you, if you like). Things are priced around that. If we decide that a power sword is the same as a force sword (I'm not saying that's the correct conversion, it's just an example), then it's +2 TL, which means it's worth 4x as much as the listed price. People from primitive worlds have a lower TL: if you come from a medieval world with a TL of 4, then you have Low TL -5 [-25]. There are already rules for handling how low or high TL characters interact with items of another tech-level (though there's another pyramid article that has alternate rules for handling gun familiarity that applies across TLs, which might yield more satisfactory results for a game like this).

I don't know if there's such an advantage as "TL familiarity," but it might explain something like a Tech-Priest, who might have "High TL +2 [10]" but either have "Engineer!" as a wild card skill and ignore all TL penalties for lower or higher TL, or have a familiarity with most Imperial TL 9 technology (something that specific might be a perk)

Edit: If you're worried about people being able to build X that's above their TL, but nothing else ("I know the secrets to power-field technologies, but I can't build a warp engine, and I can't build a plasma cannon") you might handle that with perks, representing a fraction portion of the High TL advantage. I'd say 1 point per +1 TL for a narrow field. It's effectively a -80% limitation on the advantage. How broad that can be is up to you. "A single item" strikes me as narrow, but perk-level stuff often is, and if someone wants to know how to make 5+ TL 11 items, he might be better off simply buying High TL +2.

The pricing things throughout most of the empire within a single TL is a good idea. thanks for that! hadn't even thought of that yet. I would indeed like to have the article where chainswords are described. 40k just isn't 40k without them.

The gun familiarity rules might come in handy as well. Though I think I'm just letting people learn the guns skill at multiple TL depending on their background. Any Imperial guardsman should be able to shoot their lasgun without penalty. They can pick up guns skills on lower TL's just as easy if they want to use a shotgun or something similar. (or just let them spend a point to gain familiarity with lower tech weapons.)

Encouraging the use of hidebound for the tech priest is also a good idea. I might force them to chose between either hidebound or a minor -5 enemy flaw. The rest of your order has noticed you are liable to be flexible in the orders rules and keeps a close eye on you to see if you're in danger of becoming a heritek.

As for letting people buy higher TL then the default TL. I'm a bit weary about that. It's part of the setting that knowledge is fragmented and that some of their technology is lost technology. they can only build it because the procedures are preserved. They don't understand how it works. they just know it does. A tl means that they got the knowledge of how something mostly works.

your idea of perks/advantages giving access to higher then the default TL could be used. Want to be able to repair a gellar field generator or a plasma weapon? Pay points for Tech familiarity (warp propulsion) or (plasma weaponry) and then you're able to learn the skills. The other way around could also be used. though maybe disadvantages would be better for that.
The average tech priest would still have higher TL then normal. But still be limited to TL 9 with most really advanced technology be out of his grasp.

As for restrictions on IQ? just because you're uneducated doesn't mean you're stupid.

[weby]

One thing I have done a few times is to treat the wrong TL penalty as as something that can be bought off with a technique/skill. Instead of the using one as default for the other.

I also used three penalty scales for IQ based skills. Basically the thing goes like:

The default progression (-5/tl over -2/tl below after the -1 for -1) is for understanding the technology, so things like designing/modifying gear and similar uses, that is limited to the max +3 TLs over.

The middle one is -3/TL over and -1/tl below is for things like basic repairs if you have the repair manual available or have done it often enough that you know most of if. This is limited to maximally the same -15 penalty, and thus +5 TLs.

Then there is the "basic operation" where the penalty is -1/TL over and -1/2 TLs below. This is for things like basic operation of the gear. This is also for basic maintenance tasks.

Further any penalties to skill uses are double the normal penalty up to the standard penalty.

So as an example a TL 5 person learning to operate modern(TL8) sensors would buy the base skill as TL 5 and then buy the difference as technique.
So say they have 6 points in Electronics operation(sensors)/TL8 technique, they could use a TL 8 radar in basic use at no penalty. But lets say that they are trying to compensate to see a stealthy enemy giving -5 to the sensor roll, they would take double that -5 for a total of -3(base TL difference), -5 base penalty, -5 the doubling of penalty and they could use those 6 levels of technique to reduce it by 6, leaving base-3-5-5+6=base-7(2 worse than someone with the native skill)

Say we have the same TL 5 person with skill in electronics repair(sensors) and the same 6 points in a technique for that. They could easily do basic day to day maintenance at full skill, but if the the item broke and they had to repair it, they would be at -3 total even if they had a manual,tools and so on. If they tried to do some simple modifications on it they would get -15 and thus roll at -9 to their base skill.

Those rules were meant to simulate situations like the one where we had someone find some alien technology and learn to eventually operate it, but the true understanding was not there.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Coren

The pricing things throughout most of the empire within a single TL is a good idea. thanks for that! hadn't even thought of that yet. I would indeed like to have the article where chainswords are described. 40k just isn't 40k without them.

It's issue 53, Tech & Toys III, in the article "Ultra Tech Too." It's on page 10 called the "Vibro-Wire." Nasty stats. The Tech & Toys issues are generally great, full of new gadgets that would fight nicely into any UT game.

The gun familiarity rules might come in handy as well. Though I think I'm just letting people learn the guns skill at multiple TL depending on their background. Any Imperial guardsman should be able to shoot their lasgun without penalty. They can pick up guns skills on lower TL's just as easy if they want to use a shotgun or something similar. (or just let them spend a point to gain familiarity with lower tech weapons.)

Issue 65, titled "Alternate GURPS III" in the article "Alternate Gun Specialties and Techniques."

As for restrictions on IQ? just because you're uneducated doesn't mean you're stupid.

Agreed.

Also, one thing you'll quickly come up against: Superior UT ranged weapons makes melee pretty redundant. Also, two space marines who punch one another in the face won't hurt one another if they're both in power armor. You'll need some optional rules to make melee more attractive, and to allow the sort of melee slug-fests so popular in the franchise.

[Coren]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Also, one thing you'll quickly come up against: Superior UT ranged weapons makes melee pretty redundant. Also, two space marines who punch one another in the face won't hurt one another if they're both in power armor. You'll need some optional rules to make melee more attractive, and to allow the sort of melee slug-fests so popular in the franchise.

hmm I doubt we'll be seeing any space marines. Unless it's a chaos space marine. But you bring up a good point about the melee weapons. I'll have to look into that ab it more because I really have no clue about how to go about that.

maybe just nerf power-armor and the damage of ranged weapons so it comes more in line with the damage output of melee weapons. Or give melee weapons a higher armor divisor then the ranged weapons.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Coren

hmm I doubt we'll be seeing any space marines. Unless it's a chaos space marine. But you bring up a good point about the melee weapons. I'll have to look into that ab it more because I really have no clue about how to go about that.

maybe just nerf power-armor and the damage of ranged weapons so it comes more in line with the damage output of melee weapons. Or give melee weapons a higher armor divisor then the ranged weapons.

Well, like I noticed that the vibro-wire sword is TL 10^ while I suggested TL 9... but if all the guns are TL 9 and the melee weapons can get up to TL 10, then they have an advantage. If you put people routinely in close quarters, then melee weapons aren't stupid (running at a line of guys wielding APEP-loaded storm rifles and HMGs across an open field for hundreds of yards wielding any kind of melee weapon is just stupid. Ambushing a guy in the narrow corridors of a space hulk with your space-shiv, though, is much smarter. Suddenly the bulk of the weapon hampers him as you stab him over and over)

I wouldn't nerf power armor, as the point of it is that the typical bullet just bounces off of it. I have some thoughts I can offer on how to handle the 'punching guys in power armor" problem, but otherwise: Don't allow gunslinger (40k isn't big on allowing unpenalized movement and shooting in the same turn anyway), introduce the stormtrooper's marksmanship academy rule, add the Gun Etiquette rule, and try to keep things close often (not constantly: the guy with the sniper-scope on his bolter wants to be cool too sometimes),and the guy who dumped all of his points into Chainswording won't feel like an idiot. Think "Dungeon" rather than "warzone" and you should be okay

[Antumbra]

As a general thing, there is a rather decent 40k fanbook for GURPS.

I don't agree with all of it, but it's a start.