Soldierly Honesty (and spies) - Page 3

Landwalker · 12-12-2009, 08:17 AM

Just for the sake of taking the "conflict of laws" ad absurdum, consider this:

In the United States, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road.

In the United Kingdom, the law requires you to drive on the left side of the road.

Now, obviously, common sense alone would seem to make this a non-issue. However, as it is being argued here, an Honest American who went to the UK would, in the face of conflicting laws between his home country and the country he is visiting, drive on the right side of the road.

Rolling back to the realm of sensibility, here, I think this can serve as a slightly hyperbolic illustration of why Honesty doesn't mean "Home Laws or Bust". The disadvantage says "You must obey the law." If you're in Great Britain, the law is that you drive on the left side of the road, and if you then catch an African Swallow across the Channel to France, the law is that you drive on the right side of the road. Ultimately, "You must obey the law" means "You must not do anything that would get you arrested if caught."

As far as spies, well, I'm of the opinion that no Honest person would ever voluntarily be a spy, and any Honest person who was involuntarily a spy would be a truly awful one. If you are caught conducting espionage in pretty much any country in the world, you will be at best imprisoned and quite possibly executed. If you're an American spy in Iran, your very existence is illegal.

Cheers.

David Johnston2 · 12-12-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landwalker

Just for the sake of taking the "conflict of laws" ad absurdum, consider this:

In the United States, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road.

In the United Kingdom, the law requires you to drive on the left side of the road.

Now, obviously, common sense alone would seem to make this a non-issue. However, as it is being argued here, an Honest American who went to the UK would, in the face of conflicting laws between his home country and the country he is visiting, drive on the right side of the road.

.

American law only requires you drive on the right side on American roads. There is no conflict there.

vicky_molokh · 12-12-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

American law only requires you drive on the right side on American roads. There is no conflict there.

Good point. But in this case, Americans can't tell their troops to apply American laws to people caught on the territory of Iraq either.

Akicita · 12-12-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landwalker

...any Honest person who was ... a spy would be a truly awful one.

QFT. I think this is a critical point. Whatever Code of Honor the spy might have, it won't be the same as Honesty in GURPS. Circumstances may force someone with honesty to engage in an act of espionage, but they just wouldn't be capable of making it a career, nor would they be desirable to a recruiter.

David Johnston2 · 12-12-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molokh

Good point. But in this case, Americans can't tell their troops to apply American laws to people caught on the territory of Iraq either.

I don't know what you mean by that.

vicky_molokh · 12-12-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I don't know what you mean by that.

Back in the non-legal combatants thread, someone said that during wartime, prisoners who are not POWs (because they're not soldiers) should be judged according to the laws of the occupying nation [America], but that proposal seems to be based on the premise that the occupying nation's laws apply in not only within its borders.

David Johnston2 · 12-12-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molokh

Back in the non-legal combatants thread, someone said that during wartime, prisoners who are not POWs (because they're not soldiers) should be judged according to the laws of the occupying nation [America], but that proposal seems to be based on the premise that the occupying nation's laws apply in not only within its borders.

Of course they do. Occupying nations laws apply to the territory they occupy. The Geneva Conventions even say so.

sn0wball · 12-12-2009, 09:58 AM

GURPS Honesty is a strange phenomenon and will not work as written in every campaign.

If you argue that one can be a spy by obeying the law of his home country than this is only true because he enjoys hefty Legal Enforcement Powers. Few legal codes allow their citizens to enter other people homes, take their stuff and steal their secrets. For a spy not to be a criminal, even at home, he needs special privileges which constitute Legal Enforment Powers.

At this point the question is wether such Legal Enforcement Powers are compatible with Honesty. Can you be an Honest KGB agent in Stalinist Russia? Technically, this may be possible, but is it worth -10 points for Honesty if you can get away with torture and murder by arguing that it is done for the sake of the state? I would say no. I´d let the player of the spy take Honesty at quirk level for paying his taxes in time. Honesty worth - 10 points needs an effective legal code which sufficiently restricts adventuring activity.

David Johnston2 · 12-12-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sn0wball

At this point the question is wether such Legal Enforcement Powers are compatible with Honesty. Can you be an Honest KGB agent in Stalinist Russia? Technically, this may be possible, but is it worth -10 points for Honesty if you can get away with torture and murder by arguing that it is done for the sake of the state?.

Doesn't matter whether it is done for the sake of the state. They weren't actually legal in Stalinist Russia, even if the State was doing it.

~~Figleaf23~~ · 12-12-2009, 10:24 AM

Basically, Honest people couldn't work in law enforcement in many many parts of the world today.

12-12-2009, 08:17 AM	#21
Landwalker Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Cumberland, ME	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) Just for the sake of taking the "conflict of laws" ad absurdum, consider this: In the United States, the law requires you to drive on the right side of the road. In the United Kingdom, the law requires you to drive on the left side of the road. Now, obviously, common sense alone would seem to make this a non-issue. However, as it is being argued here, an Honest American who went to the UK would, in the face of conflicting laws between his home country and the country he is visiting, drive on the right side of the road. Rolling back to the realm of sensibility, here, I think this can serve as a slightly hyperbolic illustration of why Honesty doesn't mean "Home Laws or Bust". The disadvantage says "You must obey the law." If you're in Great Britain, the law is that you drive on the left side of the road, and if you then catch an African Swallow across the Channel to France, the law is that you drive on the right side of the road. Ultimately, "You must obey the law" means "You must not do anything that would get you arrested if caught." As far as spies, well, I'm of the opinion that no Honest person would ever voluntarily be a spy, and any Honest person who was involuntarily a spy would be a truly awful one. If you are caught conducting espionage in pretty much any country in the world, you will be at best imprisoned and quite possibly executed. If you're an American spy in Iran, your very existence is illegal. Cheers.

12-12-2009, 09:58 AM	#28
sn0wball Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Schleswig, Germany	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) GURPS Honesty is a strange phenomenon and will not work as written in every campaign. If you argue that one can be a spy by obeying the law of his home country than this is only true because he enjoys hefty Legal Enforcement Powers. Few legal codes allow their citizens to enter other people homes, take their stuff and steal their secrets. For a spy not to be a criminal, even at home, he needs special privileges which constitute Legal Enforment Powers. At this point the question is wether such Legal Enforcement Powers are compatible with Honesty. Can you be an Honest KGB agent in Stalinist Russia? Technically, this may be possible, but is it worth -10 points for Honesty if you can get away with torture and murder by arguing that it is done for the sake of the state? I would say no. I´d let the player of the spy take Honesty at quirk level for paying his taxes in time. Honesty worth - 10 points needs an effective legal code which sufficiently restricts adventuring activity. __________________ No unconsenting english phrases were harmed during the writing of this post.

12-12-2009, 10:24 AM	#30
~~Figleaf23~~ Banned Join Date: Apr 2008	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) Basically, Honest people couldn't work in law enforcement in many many parts of the world today.