Pole weapons and illusion spell.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

I wonder if GMs should specifically be told that they can allow a bonus to disbelieve on anything that seems to call for it? There is simply not room to add that in Wizard, but the ITL layout is still flexible and has room.

That would help deal with the wizard who knows that his foes are all "optimized" at IQ 8, so he casts an illusion of the worst monster they have ever seen. The players won't believe it but the PCs are stuck rolling vs. 8.

That's an idea. Another idea is to allow a character to "confront" something that the player believes to be an illusion. This is different from an attempt to disbelieve an illusion, which can be done from distance. To confront an illusion, the character has to stand still, unresisting and allow the thing an "auto-hit." If it's an illusion, the character has "auto-disbelieved it. However, if it's real he's been hit and takes damage. This is just off the top of my head and hasn't been tested in any way.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

I wonder if GMs should specifically be told that they can allow a bonus to disbelieve on anything that seems to call for it? There is simply not room to add that in Wizard, but the ITL layout is still flexible and has room.

Yes, they should.

[JLV]

As some of you may recall, I advocated strongly for exactly this (a possible bonus to disbelieve something that was fairly obviously an illusion) in a previous thread.

As I recall, the idea got me voted off the island...

Needless to say, I strongly support such a rule.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

I wonder if GMs should specifically be told that they can allow a bonus to disbelieve on anything that seems to call for it? There is simply not room to add that in Wizard, but the ITL layout is still flexible and has room. ...

Hi Steve, everyone.
In the TFT thread and the Illusion thread I argued strongly for placing significant limitations on Illusions. So anything that tones them down gets an enthusiastic vote from me.

By all means, give a 1 or 2 die bonus for Illusions that are too weird / unlikely. (Note that some Illusion like effects (say Glamour), require more than 3 dice to disbelieve.)

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

And even with a second roll or die-modifier to determine just how unbelievable an illusion may be, some characters will still completely fail to disbelieve even the most out-of-place illusion; as was the specific case with this group of 4 Adventurers who faced a similar dynamic to the one we are discussing. Take careful note of the dialog exchange at 1:15 on the clip HERE

JK

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

And even with a second roll or die-modifier to determine just how unbelievable an illusion may be, some characters will still completely fail to disbelieve even the most out-of-place illusion; as was the specific case with this group of 4 Adventurers who faced a similar dynamic to the one we are discussing. Take careful note of the dialog exchange at 1:15 on the clip HERE

JK

Which was why I suggested a method which doesn’t require a die roll but has an attendant risk.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Which was why I suggested a method which doesn’t require a die roll but has an attendant risk.

Yes, and so you did my friend, so you did. Here is another example of a different group of 4 Adventurers examining the same illusory situation we are disusing, and sums up the problem, the solution, and *the risk* most handily HERE.

JK

[JLV]

I'd say those two clips pretty much sum it up, don't they? ;-)

[Kirk]

SJ is rightly thinking about this, as all of us probably have.

Our train of thought has been that if a wizard casts something outside of what the PCs believe he 1) Has the capacity for and 2) and isn't easily beaten with physical means, then it should probably be disbelieved.

If the PCs are "cheating" the system by dumbing down their characters and assigning an IQ of 8 to them, assuming they don't have to work, negotiate with others, etc. or desire to attain more advanced talents or spells, then they are going to have to step up and either kill the wizard with their maximized fighters or disbelieve en masse to hit their 8 roll.

Otherwise, they are outmatched and so there you are.

The wizard has to cast something that is "believable", both to cause pause in the opponents to make a roll and to perhaps force them to disbelieve a real thing.

That is the great thing about having some standard summon spells for regular creatures like wolves, basic fighters, gargoyles, giants, etc. It is a great part of the game, because it the wizard casts something like an Octopus of Cidri (dangerous indeed), almost assuredly it is not summoned and so let the disbelieving begin! :)

[David Bofinger]

How about: when a threat first appears each figure gets to vote whether they think it's an illusion. If the vote is that it is an illusion, the party as a whole gets a chance to disbelieve it at some IQ or other. If it's real, everyone suffers a penalty. I don't know, it's a bit complex and special-caseish but I doubt that's avoidable.

Example: The party has five characters of IQ 13, 11, 10, 8, 8. All but one of the 8s vote that the newly appeared octopus is an illusion. A majority is three, so the IQ used is the 3rd highest vote for illusion: IQ 10. If the 3/IQ roll against IQ 10 is successful and the octopus is an illusion, it dissipates. If the roll fails and the octopus is an illusion, there is no effect. If the octopus is real then for the rest of the battle it rolls one less die when attacking anyone who voted "illusion", and they roll one more die when attacking it.