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Old 04-17-2012, 12:19 PM   #51
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I don't have Deep Beyond. I have no idea how accurate
  • an Eidolon built with or without a reference low-res scan, but with the lifetime record of ubiquitous surveillance and the assistance of the best psychologist/analyst/memeticist SAIs
is compared to
  • a Shadow.
The first is a based on secondary sources and the second is based on the only relevant primary source.

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(IOW, if Eidolons-making uses just hearsay or vague second-hand reports, I agree with you.
Isn't that the point? You get an Eidolon if you want an Infomorph that acts like Captain Kirk, or Napoleon Bonapart, or your favorite Invid star does in fluffy entertainment press.

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Especially if your Shadow is indeed a SAI-7 and the Eidolon is LAI-5.)
It makes sense to have an SAI based Shadow, because you want it to be able to substitute for sapient you. It doesn't make as much sense to have a sapient Eidolon for most purposes (e.g. a "skin" for your VI).

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But based on the older post, I [am interested whether Fragments and Shadows are emulations (trying to emulate the whole process) or SAIs (emulating the outputs only). I thought the former, but now the answer doesn't seem clear.
Isn't emulating the "process" going to be more nuanced, and more fundamentally accurate than a shallow veneer of catch phrases and expected responses?
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:35 PM   #52
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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I thought that the big difference was that Eidolon is fundamentally a SAI which is programmed to think as a person, while a Ghost is a human mind (with all of its analogue legacy architecture) running on a virtual brain (i.e. an emulation of how the whole mind works, not just the conscious thinking part).
No, that's the difference between a Shadow and a Ghost.

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Old 04-17-2012, 01:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Isn't that the point? You get an Eidolon if you want an Infomorph that acts like Captain Kirk, or Napoleon Bonapart, or your favorite Invid star does in fluffy entertainment press.

It makes sense to have an SAI based Shadow, because you want it to be able to substitute for sapient you. It doesn't make as much sense to have a sapient Eidolon for most purposes (e.g. a "skin" for your VI).
Somehow I got the wrong impression that an Eidolon of Einstein can also make the same inventions/discoveries as the first Einstein. Again, not familiar with Deep Beyond to know better.

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Isn't emulating the "process" going to be more nuanced, and more fundamentally accurate than a shallow veneer of catch phrases and expected responses?
Probably. Depends on how close an emulation is, I guess.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:28 PM   #54
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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Somehow I got the wrong impression that an Eidolon of Einstein can also make the same inventions/discoveries as the first Einstein.
That shouldn't be hard. His papers do that too everytime you read them. Pretending to discover the photoelectric effect or relativity when these things are already known is just acting.
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Again, not familiar with Deep Beyond to know better.
Do Eidolons even appear anywhere else?
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Depends on how close an emulation is, I guess.
Shadows are based on lower resolution scans than Ghosts, but that's because they don't kill you. It's still a lot more information about how you actually think than any amount of observing the externals is going to give you.
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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That shouldn't be hard. His papers do that too everytime you read them. Pretending to discover the photoelectric effect or relativity when these things are already known is just acting.
Oh, I meant without relying on papers that were written after the discovery. In short, I mistook Acting for Physics. (See below)

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Do Eidolons even appear anywhere else?
I guess I just absorbed bits and pieces of mentions, tried piecing them together, but they came back wrong. Anyway, I realized and admitted that I was wrong, and I think it is time to return to the probability/plausibility topic.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:37 PM   #56
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

Shadows and eidolons can both be based on LAIs as well as SAIs. Presumably, a SAI-based shadow can be fairly bright and creative, and can be a pretty good emulation of the source personality; a LAI-based eidolon will come across like a rather obtuse and uncreative actor who's spent weeks learning to impersonate a specific human being.

Ghosts, fragments, and shadows are explained quite clearly on p.TS120; see also p.TS167. These are important terms of art in the Transhuman Space world; anyone who wants to talk about or play in the setting needs to get them right.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:49 PM   #57
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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Shadows and eidolons can both be based on LAIs as well as SAIs. Presumably, a SAI-based shadow can be fairly bright and creative, and can be a pretty good emulation of the source personality; a LAI-based eidolon will come across like a rather obtuse and uncreative actor who's spent weeks learning to impersonate a specific human being.
It seems likely to me that most applications for Shadows are going to be SAIs, since you want them to be acceptable substitutes that are able to make decisions on your behalf. Although perhaps people also run them as autoresponders in their VIs? Seems like overkill though, you can just have you VI answer the phone with your voice/image it doesn't really need to be "you" to tell the person that you are busy and will call them back or whatever. Now maybe Euros use LAI shadows because it wouldn't be legal to make an SAI for this purpose? I'm still really confused about how AI even is supposed to work in Europe. Can you hire an SAI and have it run your Shadow for you?

Eidolons on the other hand seem mostly be a frivolous entertainment thing that you wouldn't want to waste a lot of processing power on. Do you really a need a sapient talking dinosaur to entertain toddlers, or a sapient star of the week to act as your VI, or Napoleon to play a Waterloo simulation against? So I imagine most applications for Eidolons aren't sapient.

That's were I was going with my example. If the hypothetical future acedemic me wants to attend a meeting he'll want an SAI shadow. If somebody wants a tutor for my class, that pretends to be me giving my lectures and such, an LAI is fine.

I'm still trying to figure out why Vicky thinks Shadows are "sad" and "not talked about much". As far as I can tell they are a commonly used tool in Fifth wave communication. Doesn't one of the vignettes have Copernicus Jones conducting an interview via Shadow?

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Old 04-17-2012, 03:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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I'm still trying to figure out why Vicky thinks Shadows are "sad" and "not talked about much". As far as I can tell they are a commonly used tool in Fifth wave communication. Doesn't one of the vignettes have Copernicus Jones conducting an interview via Shadow?
Because I see them as imperfect, 'cut-down' personalities that could be full fledged. As sole survivors, they're sad because a Ghost would be just better. As tools for remote conferences, they're still worse than Ghost Xoxes. You probably want to write with a hand that has all of its fingers. I feel sending a Shadow to do some stuff is like using a remote-controlled hand which has zero response delay . . . but has one less finger. (Don't take the analogy literally.)

Yes, I know Xoxes are illegal. But this isn't a case of runaway infinite multi-copying - those xoxes would be merged back again after returning.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:25 PM   #59
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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Because I see them as imperfect, 'cut-down' personalities that could be full fledged.
Source? Also, do you feel that way about your Voicemail's outgoing message?
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As sole survivors, they're sad because a Ghost would be just better.
Sure, but that's a case where a person has died and left some stuff behind. A Shadow of the deceased is like a very acute version of a photograph or video of the same. Do you think that video is a sad medium because sometimes the people in them are now dead?
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As tools for remote conferences, they're still worse than Ghost Xoxes.
Besides being illegal, you also have to be dead.

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Yes, I know Xoxes are illegal. But this isn't a case of runaway infinite multi-copying - those xoxes would be merged back again after returning.
Still illegal, and you'd still be dead. Future me isn't going to commit suicide and then risk punitive action just so that the version of me that's presenting a paper at the Martian Symposium of Xenobiology can better remember what it felt like when the gerbil I had when I was six died, or whatever.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:34 PM   #60
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Default Re: Probability of THS scenario - in light of the last 10 years

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Source? Also, do you feel that way about your Voicemail's outgoing message?
When it's supposed to just send text, voicemail might even be overkill. When it's supposed to interview people and do other high interactive stuff, yes.

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Sure, but that's a case where a person has died and left some stuff behind. A Shadow of the deceased is like a very acute version of a photograph or video of the same. Do you think that video is a sad medium because sometimes the people in them are now dead?
No, I see it as sad because Ghosting would've been just better. I do not see Shadows as videos, I see them as minds that are inferior.

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Besides being illegal, you also have to be dead.
That's just diving back into the Sticky Thread.

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Still illegal, and you'd still be dead. Future me isn't going to commit suicide and then risk punitive action just so that the version of me that's presenting a paper at the Martian Symposium of Xenobiology can better remember what it felt like when the gerbil I had when I was six died, or whatever.
Well, yes, people are forced to resort to Shadows because xoxing is criminalized across the board.
What exactly is evil or harmful about making a xox, sending it to some conference on Titan or whatever, getting it back and merging with it? Seems like a victimless crime / sumptuary law to me.
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