Power Gaming and How To Thwart It

[austinhaws]

I see four main types of power gamers:
1 - knowing the rules and powers and choosing the best powers for your build (understandable after gaming for many years)
2 - scouring the internet for the most powerful character and making that character (maybe you should be playing a table top battle game)
3 - forcing your will on the DM so that all things turn to your good (bad for everyone)
4 - Those who stumble upon a power that ganks EVERYTHING (you did what?!)

So, what to do about it? and what other types are there?

I've seen a lot of #1 activity in my group but that's understandable as long as the character's build is the main theme and the powers fit in. #2 has come up and frustrated other players. #3 really sucked and was in the early days and has been solved by letting that player be DM and learning how bad the situation sucked. #4 happened to me and I abused it to the MAX! lol j/k

[roguebfl]

I'm a Powergamer myself, And my first answer would be with a question "Why would you want to thwart it"

Power gaming is about feeling powerful. A powergamer does not need other to be weaker than them. They don't require their fun to be at the expense of the other players. Give everyone an equal chance to shine at what they trying to do and the nothing about powergamin that will inherenting disrupt the game.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

I'm a Powergamer myself, And my first answer would be with a question "Why would you want to thwart it"

Power gaming is about feeling powerful. A powergamer does not need other to be weaker than them. They don't require their fun to be at the expense of the other players. Give everyone an equal chance to shine at what they trying to do and the nothing about powergamin that will inherenting disrupt the game.

I just want to say that there are some powergamers who don't need others to be weaker than they are...but there are a lot of powergamers...let's call them, competetive powergamers...who won't feel powerful unless they are demonstrably more powerful than the other players. They won't feel powerful unless they are bigger, better, faster than the other PCs. They need to have the most kills, the most DPS, the most ninja-awesomeness.

I find those powergamers a problem...even in a game like D&D where the accumulation of power is the point of it.

Secondly, powergaming is a problem if the point of the game is wrapped up in the PCs not feeling powerful. There are many genres where the PCs need to feel quite unpowerful. Horror, Noir...lots of different genres. If the powergamer cannot adjust their style to the genre that's being played...then they will be a problem for that game.

I tend to the dramatics as a player. And I was playing D&D. And this was full-on hack'n'slash powergaming. It was fine to do a little light roleplaying on the side, but it was not acceptable to make any character build choices that were not completely optimized for maximum damage. It didn't matter what your character concept was.

I was playing a rogue. It was time for prestige class. I wanted to pick this prestige class that was about being the leader of a Thieves Guild...because that was how I had been playing the character the entire time. The other players had begrudgingly put up with the fact that I had "wasted" a feat on Leadership to model my criminal family, but they absolutely vetoed my choice of that Prestige class. I was forced by the group to take Master Thrower since that would up my DPS by the most. Even though it didn't make sense based on how I had been playing the character at all. Did I fight it? Not really. Because this, it became clear to me at that moment, was a powergame. Other styles of play would have been a problem. So I powergamed with the rest of them until the campaign was over. I didn't have a lot of fun, but I made sure not to mess up the vibe of the game. I also told that group once the campaign was over, that I didn't enjoy that style of play and wouldn't be back for games that followed in that style. If I had insisted in trying to make the game fun for me, it would have ruined the fun for all the powergamers and I would have been the problem.

If the powergamer insists on powergaming in a game that is fundamentally not about PCs being powerful...then that powergaming is a problem.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by trooper6

If the powergamer insists on powergaming in a game that is fundamentally not about PCs being powerful...then that powergaming is a problem.

This is is what I said power is relative and why this statement wrong. Yes you were right about Horror, but you were wrong about Noir. Power games are perfectly at home there. lets say we talk Detective Noir the power is not being Rambo, it being a better gumshoe than the police. and you dont need to be Dirk Gently to do that either.

When powergamers need to have the power at the expences of other party members that when you no longer talking aqbout a power gamer you talking about a munchkin and it is unfair to claim they are the same thing

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

This is is what I said power is relative and why this statement wrong. Yes you were right about Horror, but you were wrong about Noir. Power games are perfectly at home there. lets say we talk Detective Noir the power is not being Rambo, it being a better gumshoe than the police. and you dont need to be Dirk Gently to do that either.

When powergamers need to have the power at the expences of other party members that when you no longer talking aqbout a power gamer you talking about a munchkin and it is unfair to claim they are the same thing

A powergamer might be at home in a Mike Hammer story, but in most of the noir and hard-boiled fiction I read the protagonists may be tough guys but ultimately powerless to stop the corruption and violence that decays the soul of the city. Their victories are usually conditional. And they are good at what they do sometimes...but often not completely. They often get played and manipulated and set up and framed and don't even realize it until later. They often get out of it...but not in a way that reinforces a sense of power...but more of stubborn determination.

There is a fight between the Hero and the Big Bruiser.
The Powergamer wants to beat the Big Bruiser and be more powerful than the big bruiser and exert his power over the big bruiser.
The Noir hero may or may not win. And the fight will be vicious and the hero will probably end up with broken ribs. The victory will not come because the hero is powerful...because the hero will know he is less powerful...but because he has more determination and Will to take the beating, or because he cheated, or because the dame showed up and shot the bruiser in the arm.

Decker in Blader Runner wasn't smarter, stronger, faster, or more powerful than anyone else...he just was really stubborn about not quitting...and would take a lot of punishment. You don't get a great sense of power being Decker in that film. That for me is noir. Or Double Indemnity. The hero thought he was super powerful (in this case smarter than everyone else)...but he was smarter than Barbara Stanwyck...she played him like a cheap fiddle then dropped him lack a molding sack of potatoes.

And I see that you are making a distinction between powergamer and munchkin...where powergamer is the good one and munchkin is the bad one. But I don't think everyone is using the same definitions that you are.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by trooper6

And I see that you are making a distinction between powergamer and munchkin...where powergamer is the good one and munchkin is the bad one. But I don't think everyone is using the same definitions that you are.

This is a distinction which was made for about fifteen minutes several years ago, and it's a pity it seems to have vanished, since I think it's a useful one. Seeing as power fantasy is an element of a lot of people's gaming, it's good to be able to distinguish between people who enjoy playing characters who are, among other things, powerful, and people for whom a single-minded pursuit of power is the sole point of interest.

[Suriyel]

Personally, it comes down to what sort of game it is and how much of a gap there is between the power gamer(s) and the not-so-optimal-mechanically characters.

If everyone in the party is a power gamer and have characters that are balanced within the party, I'd probably go with it and challenge them as appropriate to their effectiveness. If the party is capable of rendering anything into a non-challenge, I may just ask if they'd rather tone it down or move on to something else and let them "win" the game.

If the power gamer is an outlier on the power curve for the party, as much as I hate doing it, and I've learned the hard way, the only thing to do is to ask them to tone it down a bit. If you do try to accommodate for the outlier(s), don't try to match force with force, especially in the number-crunchy systems. Figure out what the power gamer's "center of gravity" is, control that and redirect their destructiveness as best you can.

If you aren't set on a particular system, avoid the crunchy ones. DnD and SR, for example, are very crunchy systems with a lot of inertia behind the idea of "RAW IS LAW". GURPS can fall into this category as well since there's lot of little mechanical interactions to exploit, which are really up to the GM to decide if they are in effect but they exist in a book which is all a power gamer needs. Instead of crunchy systems, look to very generic and abstract ones, BESM if you want a point based system or Risus (and probably FUDGE though I haven't played that system) for a very free form system. The more abstract the "damage" (physical, social, whatever) is and the less complex the conflict resolution is, the better.

The most important question though is "is the power gamer making the game fun or not fun for the rest of the table".

[Johnny Angel]

Provide a variety of challenges. A tweaked out combat monster will thrive in a game where combat is often the only viable option for solving problems; likewise, someone who is optimized to do something else will thrive in a game where whatever that 'something else' is is the only viable option for solving problems. I've found that providing a variety of situations and challenges is the best way to prevent someone from overshadowing the rest of the party. Being exceptional at one thing usually means that your skills are lacking in a different area.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Suriyel

If the power gamer is an outlier on the power curve for the party, as much as I hate doing it, and I've learned the hard way, the only thing to do is to ask them to tone it down a bit. If you do try to accommodate for the outlier(s), don't try to match force with force, especially in the number-crunchy systems. Figure out what the power gamer's "center of gravity" is, control that and redirect their destructiveness as best you can.

Most power gamer willing to tone it down as long as to don't require them to go so far far that the down get the feel of power any more.

Originally Posted by Suriyel

The most important question though is "is the power gamer making the game fun or not fun for the rest of the table".

And in the cases of 1) or 2) if this is casing problem because others feel they are lacking these skill in realizing their own characters, and are have problems shining with the primary abilities against others' secondary abilities, you can ask the person to help with pointers.

[Suriyel]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Most power gamer willing to tone it down as long as to don't require them to go so far far that the down get the feel of power any more.



And in the cases of 1) or 2) if this is casing problem because others feel they are lacking these skill in realizing their own characters, and are have problems shining with the primary abilities against others' secondary abilities, you can ask the person to help with pointers.

Trying to solve a power gaming problem with even more power gaming seems, to me, to be rather counterproductive.