Ambush attacker is surprised?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

It seems pretty clear the mechanisms are there for when there isn't a clear case and the GM wants to leave it up to a die roll.

That seems to be the intent and certainly how Sean has treated it in posts and other books, but it's wasn't especially clear to me in 3e (where the rules were mostly the same). I can see how the OP is confused.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Anthony

And it offers two possibilities: total surprise, or a meeting engagement where initiative is rolled. Yes, you can give bonuses so high that one side always wins, but that's not really suggested anywhere in the rules.

Even if the defenders won the QC of Camouflage vs. Perception, I would still have the ambushers shoot first. They are dug in with their weapons aimed towards the kill zone. In addition, the defenders obviously noticed nothing in time to stay out of the kill zone.

At best I would give the defenders partial surprise.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Anthony

And it offers two possibilities: total surprise, or a meeting engagement where initiative is rolled. Yes, you can give bonuses so high that one side always wins, but that's not really suggested anywhere in the rules.

As Peter quoted: "The GM can apply other modifiers as he sees fit; e.g., if he thinks one side was more alert than the other."

Realize that "modifiers" don't have to be limited to simple pluses and minuses. If the GM feels the need to even roll, he's free to say, "Ambushing team gets +2 with a minimum result of (the ambushed team's roll)+1." That's an example of two modifiers: a bonus to the roll and a limit on the results.

[Figleaf23]

But maybe 'the GM is free to make it up' is not fully satisfying as a rule.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Anthony

And it offers two possibilities: total surprise, or a meeting engagement where initiative is rolled. Yes, you can give bonuses so high that one side always wins, but that's not really suggested anywhere in the rules.

I think that's what this means:

" The GM can apply other
modifiers as he sees fit; e.g., if he
thinks one side was more alert than
the other."

[Gnome]

Maybe we need more guidelines on how the GM should decide on modifiers? It seems to me surprise is a major determinant in the outcome of a realistic battle, so some game mechanics would be nice. I personally find that I use Perception checks a lot (maybe too much?) to determine who's aware of whom first.
I also think it's strange that surprise rolls are made for an entire team. Couldn't some team members be more alert/prepared for battle than others?

[roguebfl]

The Threads Surpise and Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise should help.

[benz72]

Not really my area, but can anyone with foot patrol experience who has set up (or survived) an ambush comment on this idea.

In the search for a logical interpretation of the defender beating the attacker despite the bonus odds I thought about a situation like this...
defender moves into / towards ambush mark but for some reason attacker is unprepared to execute in a coordinated manner. e.g. Pvt. Smit gets buck fever and squeezes one off early, or Sgt Jones happened to have taken that moment to be off the overlook to fertilize a tree and didn't give the signal on time, or whatever.

[The Benj]

The "Surprise" rules are pretty clear on what happens when you're surprised and the difference between total and partial surprise, but are quiet on exactly HOW you achieve surprise.
Personally, I go with Skill vs Perception roll.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Even if the defenders won the QC of Camouflage vs. Perception, I would still have the ambushers shoot first. They are dug in with their weapons aimed towards the kill zone. In addition, the defenders obviously noticed nothing in time to stay out of the kill zone.

When are you rolling this quick contest? I'd expect such a contest to be aimed at answering the question of whether the targets noticed the ambush before entering the kill zone!

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

At best I would give the defenders partial surprise.

...That's everything they could possibly ask. The only way you could conceivably achieve total surprise against somebody trying to ambush you is if you completely went around the kill zone and snuck up behind them! And even then probably not. Total Surprise pretty much requires a target that has no idea they might be in a fight.