Ambush attacker is surprised?

[Grey_Fox]

Hey guys,

Just having a read through the surprise rules in basic (pg.393), and i am struggling with the way the rules seem to work.

Scenario- A group of soldiers has set up an ambush and is lying in wait for another group of soldiers on combat patrol (so defenders expecting trouble), defenders fail to spot the attackers and stroll right into the kill zone at which point the attackers open fire.

A roll is made for initiative which could potentially end up with the attackers becoming surprised and mentally stunned by the defenders, admittedly there is a line of text stating the GM can add modifiers as he/she sees fit for things like if one side was more alert then the other, but this seems strange to me because unless the modifier makes to roll pointless (so why have a roll at all) a chance still exists for the attacker to get stunned by their own ambush (which to me seems bizarre).

Seems the rules are made to cover the other scenario mentioned which is neither group is expecting the other at which point i think the rules work perfectly.

Has anyone else come across this? If so what was the resolution you used? Also are there expanded ambush rules in a supplement somewhere i should look at?

Thanks

[Anthony]

It's possible (if unlikely) even in a prepared ambush for ambushers to be surprised because the enemy moved in an unexpected way, but it's reasonable to apply a quite large modifier or even declare one side the automatic winners.

[Ulzgoroth]

I would not use the initiative roll for an ambush situation. I think I've seen this recommended. The initiative roll is appropriate for a meeting engagement where both sides are surprised to see the other. For an ambush, it's more appropriate to just give the ambushers the advantage of surprise if their victims didn't detect the ambush before it went off.

[Tema69]

Alternatively, change the "expecting trouble" criteria. It is extremely exhausting to be in fight or flight mode for an extended period of time, so even during patrols, the individual may start relaxing his mind more, either consciously ("the others have my back"), or not.
Personally, I mostly GM with "expecting trouble" = The PC is VERY certain that there are bad guys present, and not just "we're in a foreign, relatively hostile country".

[The Benj]

No initiative roll. The ambushers definitely aren't surprised. The question is whether the ambushed are (and whether it's total or partial).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

Hey guys,

Just having a read through the surprise rules in basic (pg.393), and i am struggling with the way the rules seem to work.

Scenario- A group of soldiers has set up an ambush and is lying in wait for another group of soldiers on combat patrol (so defenders expecting trouble), defenders fail to spot the attackers and stroll right into the kill zone at which point the attackers open fire.

A roll is made for initiative which could potentially end up with the attackers becoming surprised and mentally stunned by the defenders, admittedly there is a line of text stating the GM can add modifiers as he/she sees fit for things like if one side was more alert then the other, but this seems strange to me because unless the modifier makes to roll pointless (so why have a roll at all) s

In a situation like that the initial contest between the patrol's (best) perception and the ambush's camouflage would act as a modifier to the roll. And yes, if there's no chance of success, then you don't need to bother.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

Also are there expanded ambush rules in a supplement somewhere i should look at?

Tactical Shooting has rules for ambushes.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by The Benj

No initiative roll. The ambushers definitely aren't surprised. The question is whether the ambushed are (and whether it's total or partial).

The problem here is that the rules (in Basic, at least) don't actually allow automatic partial surprise -- either it's total surprise, or there's an initiative roll.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem here is that the rules (in Basic, at least) don't actually allow automatic partial surprise -- either it's total surprise, or there's an initiative roll.

Yes, it does. There are two relevant quotes:

"The GM is responsible for
determining when the attackers have
achieved surprise."

So even before the section gets to rolls, the GM can just say who is surprised and who is not. No roll needed.

Next, if a roll does happen, the GM can give the ambushers all the bonuses he wants - even so much that's a question of either the defenders being partially surprised or somehow pulling out a tie.

" The GM can apply other
modifiers as he sees fit; e.g., if he
thinks one side was more alert than
the other."

Both quotes are from p. B393.

It seems pretty clear the mechanisms are there for when there isn't a clear case and the GM wants to leave it up to a die roll.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

Yes, it does. There are two relevant quotes:

"The GM is responsible for
determining when the attackers have
achieved surprise."

And it offers two possibilities: total surprise, or a meeting engagement where initiative is rolled. Yes, you can give bonuses so high that one side always wins, but that's not really suggested anywhere in the rules.