[WWII] Italian submarine comfort

[copeab]

I was going through one of my books* on submarines and came across the Ettore Fieramosa, Italy's only foray into the aircraft-carrying sub (it seems no suitable plane was found and the hangar was removed early on). However, it was the following text which I found interesting:

""They [Italian pre-war subs in general] were markedly inferior to all German U-boats, comfort playing too great a part in their design. Their conning towers were overlarge partly because they contained a big, well-equipped galley! In the main they were large, good looking vessels, but they were slow to dive, clumsy when submerged and poorly equipped."

Anyone know how accurate this is?

* _Submarines Of The World_, ed. Robert Jackson, brown Books, 2000)

[AmesJainchill]

Nothing useful to contribute, but that sounds like an awesome novelty yacht for a millionaire.

[Kromey]

Sounds like something I'd have, just as soon as I become a millionaire. Or achieve world domination -- whichever comes first.

[copeab]

The two real supervillain bots of the era are the I-400 and Surcouf.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by AmesJainchill

Nothing useful to contribute, but that sounds like an awesome novelty yacht for a millionaire.

Slightly smaller ones are already on sale here.

[AmesJainchill]

Wow...very cool!

[johndallman]

I don't have anything on the comfort issue, although there seems general agreement on the web that Italian submarines had large sails (fins) that made them more conspicuous and slower to submerge. I did find one thing that seems odd.

There was a sizable Italian submarine group, called BETASOM at Bordeaux 1940-43, taking part in the Battle of the Atlantic. All of those submarines had left the Mediterranean via the straits of Gibraltar. The odd thing about this is that the Germans regarded that trip as almost impossible. Doenitz always resisted sending U-Boats to the Mediterranean because he was sure he'd never get them back for the main theatre in the Atlantic. If anyone has a good source on Italian subs, any info on this pointy would be interesting.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I don't have anything on the comfort issue, although there seems general agreement on the web that Italian submarines had large sails (fins) that made them more conspicuous and slower to submerge.

This morning I read through the entries on the various Italian subs in another book* I have. A few things:

- Most of them were considered comfortable and liked by their crews
- It was mentioned offhand (in the text for the Liuizzi class, that most Italian subs of the era had excessively large bridge structures. For the Flutto class, reducing the size of the tower improved underwater maneuverability.
- Several boats had poor stability and required bulges added running the length of the boats. While this improved stability, it reduced surfaces and submerged speed).
- Most of the boats were described as maneuverable.

While saying the Italian subs were inferior to German U-boats is probably technically true, it's an unfair comparison. Italy started the war with subs dating back to the late 1920's, while the oldest U-boats were only 3-4 years old at the start of the war.

I did find one thing that seems odd.

There was a sizable Italian submarine group, called BETASOM at Bordeaux 1940-43, taking part in the Battle of the Atlantic. All of those submarines had left the Mediterranean via the straits of Gibraltar. The odd thing about this is that the Germans regarded that trip as almost impossible. Doenitz always resisted sending U-Boats to the Mediterranean because he was sure he'd never get them back for the main theatre in the Atlantic. If anyone has a good source on Italian subs, any info on this pointy would be interesting.

Hmm, interesting. I did learn that Italy had several subs in the Red Sea/Indian Ocean area at the start of the war, but in 1941 had to recall them back to Europe (after Italy lost her holdings in East Africa). Some of these went to Bordeaux, other to the Mediterranean. Several of the older boats were used as transports to North Africa and the Aegean; only a handful of the older, long rage boats were converted to use as transports to the far East.

(For those wondering, yes, I'm planing on doing some Italian submarine designs in the next few weeks ;)

* _The Illustrated Directory Of Submarines of The World_**, ed. David Miller, Salamander Books, 2002

** No, all four of my books on submarines do not have "submarines of the world" in the title ...

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I don't have anything on the comfort issue, although there seems general agreement on the web that Italian submarines had large sails (fins) that made them more conspicuous and slower to submerge. I did find one thing that seems odd.

There was a sizable Italian submarine group, called BETASOM at Bordeaux 1940-43, taking part in the Battle of the Atlantic. All of those submarines had left the Mediterranean via the straits of Gibraltar. The odd thing about this is that the Germans regarded that trip as almost impossible. Doenitz always resisted sending U-Boats to the Mediterranean because he was sure he'd never get them back for the main theatre in the Atlantic. If anyone has a good source on Italian subs, any info on this pointy would be interesting.

When you say "never get them back" do you mean that he thought they'd be destroyed or that they'd be kept there for political reasons?

Suggestion as to why the Germans might dislike the straits of Gibraltar - most of the U-boats were large, ocean going vessels and might be more conspicuous in the straits (or indeed the Med). Perhaps it was more suited to smaller, costal boats?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

When you say "never get them back" do you mean that he thought they'd be destroyed or that they'd be kept there for political reasons?

He seems to have felt that making the passage out past Gibraltar would extremely risky, not worth attempting. Which is why the Italians doing it 28 times with no losses is interesting.

Suggestion as to why the Germans might dislike the straits of Gibraltar - most of the U-boats were large, ocean going vessels and might be more conspicuous in the straits (or indeed the Med). Perhaps it was more suited to smaller, coastal boats?

The straits are more than 7 miles wide, with depths up to 3000 feet. Not ultra-tight quarters - and the commonest U-Boat, Type VIIC, was only 769 tons, which is not huge. I suspect he felt that going out submerged, which is against the current in the surface layers, would be slow and allow them to be picked up on active sonar. That is fairly plausible, which makes the Italians' feat even more interesting.