[Low-tech] Historical "enemies"

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by John Smith

Drawings from books depict Egyptians wearing some sort of leather vest, although it might as well be padded cloth.

Or, more likely, a tunic.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by John Smith

If you seriously think hoplites held their spears overarm, then I can't even imagine what kind of rubbish your book will be full of.
Drawings from books depict Egyptians wearing some sort of leather vest, although it might as well be padded cloth.

There is a host of evidence to suggest that hoplites used their swords and spears overarm when crushed between the shields, as well as used them under arm. The best armed and armored hoplites fought in the front rank, and if we assume these men are wearing greaves, a full faced Corinthian style helmet and some form of torso armor sufficient to occasionally stop spears, then there are a narrow range of vulnerable targets, including the groin, throat and arm pits.

This comes to how much stock you place in the concept of a "pushing war" among hoplites, I personally subscribe to the belief that the primary combat mechanism of the phalanx was a concentrated, co-ordinated rocking motion that generates powerful, concussive force. If you have ever been in the press of a large group of people who are almost literally belly-to-back, then you will understand there are some considerable powers involved in that system, and the beauty of the Phalanx, as used by the greeks, was that it harnessed an instinctive mob behavior.

In my picture of the hoplite war, I see two polis assembled on a mutually agreed field. The phalanx orders itself primarily by tribal and family lines, with the veterans going into the first and last ranks. A generous wine ration is drank, men relieve themselves where they stand, prayers and speeches given. When the advance finally comes, it may or may not be decisive, it may very well stall and falter repeatedly: greek playwrights of the time speak liberally of the fear and terror they experienced as hoplites.

In formation, the hoplites would approach in an "open" formation, with perhaps 4 foot of seperation between each hoplite. This formation has the advantage of being more open, allowing battlefield difficulties(such as small gullies, tumbled walls, fallen trees, etc) to be manuevered easily around. As they close with the enemy, a tighter "close" formation would be adapted, with the men having perhaps 2' seperation, and finally "locked shields", where the men are shoulder to shoulder and belly to back.

I feel that it's logical to assume that the "spearwar" phase engages in close order, as the bravest leaders of the hoplites trade blows across a short distance, and in this formation, using an underhanded spear thrust does allow for greater force and a superior ability to target the vulnerable groin(disembowelment was apparently somewhat common). However, once the combat shifts in to the tight order of locked shields, an underhanded spear thrust with the dory(which features a dangerously effective buttspike) threatens the men behind you. In close confines, overhead strikes become the norm.

[John Smith]

It stops at the waist and looks thick; a tunic can be seen worn under it going all the way down to the knees. But you are probably right saying that a common soldier wouldn't have worn it; a guard, perhaps? He would have been able to afford a khopesh as well.

Verjigorn: I agree with you. The underhanded grip would be used, I think, at the beginning, because it gives more reach, and is in line with your momentum if you're running; and by the rear ranks who weren't in close combat yet to support the ront ranks as they shifted to overhand grips or swords. Once formations were broken... well, the first side to lose discipline would rout almost instantly and they were generally let go; the winners were usually satisfied enough to be recognised as such without needing to kill as many of the fleeing enemies as possible.

The "Shield pushed against enemies' shields" theory makes no sense; in that case, the first man to drop his spear and draw his dagger wins. When one side tried to push forward, they either routed the enemy or were held back by their spears.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by John Smith

It stops at the waist and looks thick; a tunic can be seen worn under it going all the way down to the knees.

I'd love to see it. I had to look at a lot of illustrations and don't recall anything like that.

Edit: Ive had another look at all of the illustrations I collected when researching Egyptian armour. The ones that look anything like the above are just tunics belted at the waist. The artist may have been trying to show the "blousing" above the belt.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by John Smith

the winners were usually satisfied enough to be recognised as such without needing to kill as many of the fleeing enemies as possible.

More likely, the winners, being on foot and burdened with shields, couldn't catch those who threw away their shields and ran. When and where enemy forces were trapped, it was fairly common for them to be slaughtered: the athenians did this to a phalanx that ran into an enclosed field, and the spartans and sicilians did this to athenians at times.

The "Shield pushed against enemies' shields" theory makes no sense; in that case, the first man to drop his spear and draw his dagger wins. When one side tried to push forward, they either routed the enemy or were held back by their spears.

This makes perfect sense, when you consider that the hoplites are in a dense formation, shoulder to shoulder and belly to back, a tight crush of men, who are protected from asphyxiation by the deep bowl of the aspis, which has several design elements suitable to resisting compressive force applied to the face. In this tight press, men can definitely strike with swords or daggers, but they would be limited in their target selection. The side that can better maintain this press and make headway is that which wins.

Witness that the Spartans fought, typically, 12 deep, and they were renowned by socrates(though i may recall incorrectly) for their effectiveness in war, not due to their military training, but for the group dancing and singing: at Luectra, the Thebans were arrayed 50 deep against the spartan right, and they had a rough go at it, eventuall winning, with Epamindanos crying: "one more step".

Hollow Lakedamion, a blog, is pretty dern spiffy for looking into the dynamics of the Othismos, and I highly recommend it. Also, check out Connolley's Western Way of War, which covers the hoplite in detail.

[sjard]

<Moderator>
Let's keep it civil here folks.
</Moderator>

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by John Smith

Verjigorn: I agree with you. The underhanded grip would be used, I think, at the beginning, because it gives more reach, and is in line with your momentum if you're running

Most of the illustrations show the spear being held overarm even when running towards the enemy. The Chiga vase is a good example. There is no difference in reach if it is held one handed which is the only way with an aspis.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Most of the illustrations show the spear being held overarm even when running towards the enemy. The Chiga vase is a good example. There is no difference in reach if it is held one handed which is the only way with an aspis.

The chief advantage to the underarm I would feel would be an easier time targeting the unprotected groin. The chief disadvantage to me is that in a dense crowd of bodies, I have trouble thinking that you really want a sharpened lizard killer jabbing back at the guy behind you, and his groin. Held overhand, I feel that helmets mitigate the danger of getting a buttspike lodged in your tender parts.

I am thinking that underarm would go well in situations where a locked shield advancement might falter: a small gulley or the like could result in a local area where the density of fighters is lower and a greater degree of personal mobility is possible. In that circumstance, I think an underhanded grip allows you a bit more deception, but since I've never actually used a dory or aspis, I really don't know. Conjecture on my part.