Two-weapons and club

[phiwum]

I have been asked whether one can use the two-weapons skill with clubs -- without having any other weapon talents at all.

Since club appears in the Ax/Mace section of the Weapons Table, one could rule that you need Ax/Mace so that you have some actual proficiency before you can use Two-Weapons. Else, Two-Weapons and club is a pretty cheap option that gives some offensive advantage and a lot of defensive advantages.

But I can't really come up with a convincing argument (to me) that you'd need Ax/Mace or any other weapons talent in order to use Two-Weapons with clubs. Nonetheless, I thought it would be prudent to ask here and see if others disagree or regard this as bordering on abuse of RAW.

[hcobb]

The effectiveness of clubs are amplified by bare handed damage ITL being one point higher than the Melee/Wizard examples. Throwing a javelin does more damage if you flip it over and toss it like a stick.

[Shostak]

I would allow Two Weapons with clubs, but would require Axe/Mace talent for use of clubs without an unskilled penalty. The idea that a mace, which is essentially just a weighted club (with the possibility of some pointy or sharp bits added to the weighted end), requires a talent while an ordinary club doesn't is absurd.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I would allow Two Weapons with clubs, but would require Axe/Mace talent for use of clubs without an unskilled penalty. The idea that a mace, which is essentially just a weighted club (with the possibility of some pointy or sharp bits added to the weighted end), requires a talent while an ordinary club doesn't is absurd.

Are you suggesting, Shostak, that in every situation, using a club without Axe/Mace talent should be unskilled or only when combined with Two Weapons?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Are you suggesting, Shostak, that in every situation, using a club without Axe/Mace talent should be unskilled or only when combined with Two Weapons?

In all situations. This isn't to suggest that swinging a club is particularly difficult, but that the talent confers a knowledge of how to do so effectively in combat, just as swinging an axe to chop wood is relatively simple, but wielding one in a fight is less so.

[phiwum]

You may well have a point, Shostak, but I'm not changing that part of RAW in my game. I reckon that clubs are allowed to be used without a talent just so one can improvise weapons. It would, after all, be hard to understand how a fellow with a 50/50 chance of hitting barehanded would drop down to about a 16% chance to hit when he picks up a baseball bat[1].

Of course, it's equally hard to understand how that same fighter might swing a bat with a 50/50 chance to hit, but drop to 16% when he picks up a mace.

So, given that I keep the untalented use of clubs unchanged, would it be reasonable to wield two clubs just by spending two talent points for Two Weapons skill?

[1] The figures are for a DX 10 fighter, who would throw four dice when using a weapon with which he's unskilled.

[hcobb]

Lots of the fictional accounts of untalented bludgeoning that I've read use a rear attack which works out nicely untalented.

[phiwum]

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to houserule a club talent, as you've suggested in the House Rules section. But I'm not asking about that.

In general, I'm loath to add new houserules that explicitly contradict RAW. I'll do it when I find RAW unworkable for some reason, but I don't see a whole lot of club abuses so far. I'm okay with wizards having a fairly weak melee attack for free (swinging their staff) and I like the idea that most anyone can improvise a weapon. If I thought that these things were unbalanced or unrealistic, I could just as easily decrease the club damage by one unless one has Ax/Mace.

But, again, given that I'm not asking for a general critique of the club rules, can we get back to my question?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

So, given that I keep the untalented use of clubs unchanged, would it be reasonable to wield two clubs just by spending two talent points for Two Weapons skill?

I don't see why not, but I don't like it.

[TippetsTX]

TBH, this is a case where I find RAW is in conflict with itself. Talents like TWO WEAPONS and WEAPON EXPERTISE explicity require a base talent and, if I were to allow the proposed combination, the ability to use a club w/o penalty w/ no talent would create an exception to this rule. Therefore, for me, the only reasonable solution is to create a talent for clubs. IMO, this is more in keeping with the spirit of RAW.