initiating HTH is an attack

[Chris Rice]

I know that Steve doesn't really comment on rules issues but it would be nice if he would outline his intentions on a few major rules ambiguities. He did this with an article in one of the Hexagrams I believe. So perhaps HTH needs similar attention.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I know that Steve doesn't really comment on rules issues but it would be nice if he would outline his intentions on a few major rules ambiguities. He did this with an article in one of the Hexagrams I believe. So perhaps HTH needs similar attention.

TBH, a complete re-write of the HTH rules wouldn't hurt either.

[hcobb]

Who wants to write the improved grappling article for Hexagram #5?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Who wants to write the improved grappling article for Hexagram #5?

I think Douglas Cole has dibs on that.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

ITL pg 103 option (o) for attempting HTH when engaged states:

"During the movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its
turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent
enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready)
its dagger."

It's probably important to note that this sentence has survived, word for word and entirely unchanged, since the very first edition of Melee (page 8). Perhaps this conservation has occurred because SJ meant precisely what he says here, and it should be taken quite literally in every respect.

I agree that Axyl has highlighted the key part of it, but in addition to what's been put in bold I would underline that 13th word, any, as key to the purpose of the true mechanics to initiating HTH combat. Option (o), it you reread it enough times, is saying more than it seems at first, but follow it literally: "onto the hex of any adjacent enemy". This option is actually an escape clause if you will, a means provided not only to attempt HTH with the figure that has you engaged, but to escape that fight by entangling yourself with a different opponent (if one is available). The latter choice is a good tactic if HTH with figure A is the lesser of two evils, as when figure B was more likely to kill you.

See yourself, figure Y, vs two opponents A & B. You are engaged by and adjacent to B at the start of the turn, but you are not adjacent to A even though A is next to or a hex away from B. Even though Y may have the higher DX and will act before B, you don't believe you can kill B with one blow but B has a weapon that could annihilate you with his counter-attack. So for your movement phase you shift one hex, staying adjacent to B (a legit move in any event) but also placing yourself between B and A. Now being adjacent to A, when your turn to attack (act) comes you pick option (o) and move into the hex with A to attempt HTH; succeeding you'll have jumped out of A's attack range and you may roll to attack B with your hands (or dagger if it was ready) just as option (o) states. The rule has to be worded just as it was or this wouldn't be possible, and clearly SJ wanted it to be possible or he wouldn't have taken pains to word it as precisely as he did.

The language of (o) clarifies how HTH works regardless of what might be interpreted from other mentions of HTH in the rules. If the circumstances warrant, you get to move (the shift around B), move again (the attempt to pounce on A) and attack A with bare hands or dagger if the pounce was successful all in one turn.

Originally Posted by Shostak

TFT is fast, simple, and has relatively few special case rules. [snip] If you allow moving into HTH during the Action Stage, you are introducing a special case of movement. While Melee was clearer about when HTH is initiated, it violates the simplicity doctrine in that it allows for movement during the Action Stage of a turn.

It appears to be a special case but, no worries, here's why it is not. Go back (up) one option on the table, and compare option (n) to option (o). Consider that figure Y in my example could have mechanically executed the exact same motions and in the same order under option (n) DISENGAGE. Y shifts to the exact same hex, remaining adjacent to B for Y's movement turn. Y then waits for his turn to attack (act) and disengages by stepping into the exact same hex where A was standing, even if there is no figure A.

It's shift 1, wait your turn, and move 1. Option (o) doesn't contain a special case after all, it's identical to executing option (n) with the only difference being the last hex you jump into isn't occupied or contested. If it was occupied, then the roll to initiate HTH combat is the contest to get into that hex by force.

I think that completely covers getting into HTH starting as an engaged figure. For disengaged figures, option (b) applies and the rules on 116. If 116 appears inconsistent about whether or not you can attack in HTH combat on the same turn you moved 1/2 MA or less to initiate it, I'd keep in mind that as an engaged figure can make the attack after the shift-wait-move one sequence, then certainly the figure that started as disengaged and only moved the allowed distance for a CHARGE ATTACK should indeed roll the HTH attack in the same turn.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

I would underline that 13th word, any,

Hi Steve,
I could not have said it better (your whole update).

I never notice the "any" before. This would also imply if you were surrounded by 6 foes, you could attempt HTH with a foe behind you.

Or for that matter, if one guy got behind you and was about to strike but you have a higher Adj DX, you could either disengage (what I would normally do) or attempt HTH by diving backwards onto him.

I'll have to mull this over.

And yes we are in agreement, but I am curious if you interpret the "any" to allow the above two situations.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

Hi Steve,
I could not have said it better (your whole update).

I never notice the "any" before. This would also imply if you were surrounded by 6 foes, you could attempt HTH with a foe behind you.

Or for that matter, if one guy got behind you and was about to strike but you have a higher Adj DX, you could either disengage (what I would normally do) or attempt HTH by diving backwards onto him.

I'll have to mull this over.

And yes we are in agreement, but I am curious if you interpret the "any" to allow the above two situations.

Why thanks Axyl, I appreciate the feedback, but you really got the ball rolling when you homed in on option (o).

And in the situations you just outlined, I'd say the character is entitled to pick any of the adjacent figures to attempt HTH on, even the one to the rear. Because any means any.

If anyone were to contest the attempt on the rear-most opponent, I'd feel obliged to point out that the figure that wants to do so gets the 1 hex shift during the movement phase, and there is no restriction on choosing a new facing at that point. And one never even has to move a hex, shifting or otherwise, to change facing on their movement turn.

I'd rather not even require the explicit change in facing at that point anyway though, as I imagine the surrounded figure that plans on trying HTH would wait to the last instant to twist as they attempted the pounce, rather than telegraph their enemies which one they were going to "jump" in advance -- they shouldn't even have to decide themselves til the very last second, which wouldn't come until their turn to attack (act).

I just did it myself, but I also notice throughout SJ's rules he sometimes uses the word "attack" generically (as in "Look out, the goblins are attacking!") Just using the word "attack" doesn't always mean someone is using up their turn on an "Attack option". It'd be nice if reference to "Attack" as the selected option in the Turn Sequence was always capitalized to keep things less fuzzy, but I keep forgetting to do it myself. I think that's why some may get the idea that initiating HTH precludes also hitting with hands or dagger on the same turn, even though it's spelled out elsewhere that you do indeed get to make that actual "Attack" the very same turn as long as you never exceeded 1/2 MA.

[Skarg]

I haven't studied every word of what you wrote, but it seems to me yeah, sure. I don't get why it's a big revelation. You can shift and then during your action initiate HTH with any figure (that you are allowed to initiate HTH with per the usual limits). I don't know why anyone would think being engaged by some other figure would be relevant, especially when Steve even suggests "jumping on one of them"?

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I haven't studied every word of what you wrote, but it seems to me yeah, sure. I don't get why it's a big revelation. You can shift and then during your action initiate HTH with any figure (that you are allowed to initiate HTH with per the usual limits). I don't know why anyone would think being engaged by some other figure would be relevant, especially when Steve even suggests "jumping on one of them"?

Hi Skarg,
Steve's point is that you can use HTH to move 2 hexes in a turn and thus escape a dreaded attack.

A shift during movement (but still engaged by the foe), then a dive into HTH (either as a further shift or onto the other foe away from the dreaded threat).

And yes, this can also be achieved through shift and disengage.

Just one more option for higher DX folks.

-kind regards

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

TBH, a complete re-write of the HTH rules wouldn't hurt either.

I have to agree, and I hope that when Douglas Cole gets around to his grappling article, he also includes a clear, simplified description of entering HTH. There are several well-reasoned options in this thread for determining how HTH works, but every one of them requires ignoring part of the rules in favor of others and/or reading into the rules something that is not there but that one feels is strongly implied.