Room Clearing combat-any tips?

[hoganbball23]

Hi all. So ill be playing a campaign in which the PC's mostly act as an anti-terrorist team. At least two of the sessions will have significant time spent in an assault on a fixed position, some kind of a building. I usually have 6-7 PC's.

My players are used to tactical combat played out on a map so they can see what they are doing (it reduces the "Where am i, where is he?" thing).

I'm trying to capture the speed and intensity of moving quickly through a building while simultaneously giving all players the chance to act. Ive thought of asking people to assign a basic action to themselves when they enter a hallway (1)I always stop at the first door and cover 2) I always breach the first door 3) I always walk to the next corner and look around it while crouching.

In the past, ive had enemies leap out of various dungeon shadows to attack different characters in the line. They are virtually always fodder level though because otherwise peoples perception is generally so high they will see/hear them. (PC's dont get upset that they should have seen it when they quickly cut off a head).

Also, how do you guys resolve throwing a grenade generically around a corner into an unknown room? Do you have a skill roll for it or not? I generally argue no because your not looking at your target or even trying to hit anything....

Thanks all!

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by hoganbball23

Also, how do you guys resolve throwing a grenade generically around a corner into an unknown room? Do you have a skill roll for it or not? I generally argue no because your not looking at your target or even trying to hit anything....

I'd be inclined to handle it as lobbing toward a hex. It's just that the thrower doesn't care much if they miss by a little.

[phayman53]

Not really tips for keeping the at-the-table pace up, but do you have Tactical Shooting? There are special rules and tactics in it that will be absolutely essential for getting the feel of modern entry and room clearing operations.

[Skarg]

It generally does matter a lot quite where an explosive grenade lands. I use a hex map, and ask where the thrower is generally trying to throw it, taking into account how well the thrower knows what the room around the corner is like, then roll with a maximum accuracy level and sometimes an additional check for unexpected deflection by something and GM-estimate where it goes.

[Anthony]

The problem with doing this tactically in a game is that the vast majority of rooms will be empty, and repeating the same process twenty times when nothing happens for nineteen of them will be horribly tedious.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by hoganbball23

...
Also, how do you guys resolve throwing a grenade generically around a corner into an unknown room? Do you have a skill roll for it or not? I generally argue no because your not looking at your target or even trying to hit anything....

Thanks all!

OK if they are chucking grendes through an opening but can't actually see the room the grenade will enter. I would likely just say how many yards are you throwing it and apply the range mod and apply scatter from that initial desired point. With a view to the actual room itself if it interferes with the throw.

E.g someone say's "I want throw the grenade 10 yards" , but the room they are standing 3 yards away from the entrance of is only 4 yards by 4 yards, then even if they manage a perfect throw the grenade will bounce off the far wall before it can get 10 yards.


However a worse scenario is say the occupants* of that 4x4 room suspecting they might get breached have created a makeshift barricade 2 yards in front of the door to make a grenade trap, well a vigorous enough throw into the room might well go through the doorway hit the barricade and possible bounce back far enough to cause a problem for the thrower!

Clearing unseen rooms with grenades might be a good tactic in general but it can have some down sides! And having your grenade end up back at your feet having already been cooked is a pretty harsh failure state


Now a slight complication in a realism heavy game is the round the corner bit. If you thinking going up to the corner and briefly exposing your hand to chuck the grenade down the unseen side of the corner. I likely wouldn't make this harder. But if you are thinking some FPS style clever ricochet/rebound of a surface to send the grenade in the direction you want but can't directly target from your throwing location, that I might well penalise. Because real life can be rather more random than FPS physics engines in this regard.



*and they may no longer be directly occupying the room, but rather covering the room from other entrances or vantage points

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd be inclined to handle it as lobbing toward a hex. It's just that the thrower doesn't care much if they miss by a little.

Yep.

If your really worried about scatter chuck in more than one at a time they're unlikely to scatter the same way. Ultimately rooms and grenades and scatter beng limited to half overall distance, it's a bit moot.

Originally Posted by Anthony

The problem with doing this tactically in a game is that the vast majority of rooms will be empty, and repeating the same process twenty times when nothing happens for nineteen of them will be horribly tedious.

It could be but ultimately if the insist on doing this with every room they come across they'll likely run out of grenades pretty quickly (well unless we're talking very UT tiny ones, or magical ones)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

It could be but ultimately if the insist on doing this with every room they come across they'll likely run out of grenades pretty quickly (well unless we're talking very UT tiny ones, or magical ones)

An option I've considered for paranoid tactics is to just assign them a multiplier -- "if you want to do <X> for every room you try to enter, before you know there is a threat, pay <20X>" -- or whatever multiplier seems appropriate given the frequency of the relevant situation coming up.

[The Colonel]

I dimly recall there were system rules for this in something ... maybe GURPS Cops?

As for grenading rooms - unless it's a large one, where the grenade actually lands may be moot. You can do enough damage to yourself simply firing an assault rifle in an enclosed space, let along having a grenade go off in there. That's why an awful lot of CQB specialists use suppressed weapons.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anthony

An option I've considered for paranoid tactics is to just assign them a multiplier -- "if you want to do <X> for every room you try to enter, before you know there is a threat, pay <20X>" -- or whatever multiplier seems appropriate given the frequency of the relevant situation coming up.

It could well work, it certainly cuts down on bookkeeping. How well it fits the game will depend on the feel you are going for in the game.

[Rolando]

You may want to look for GURPS SWAT, it have a small chapter about exactly that you will be doing.

I don't have it at hand now but an advice I can give you is don't get too carried away with the tactical combat. It may turn into a wargame, and it may be fun, but you will like to make the scenario more tense and transmit some of the tension of the situation to the players, not just allow for the tactical play. Tension is a big part of CQB.

Maybe most rooms are empty but you should make them roll for perception and other skills or attributes every time (sometimes with a few penalties for dust, darkness, how messy is the room, etc.), this is so the players understand that reacting to unexpected enemies is something that you must train, and that they are reacting in a not really conscious way but a trained way, it is split seconds reaction.

The skills and attributes rolls will keep the players tense and expecting things. If a roll is missed they may shoot a burst to a shadow or mound of dirty rags or fail to see a target. Don't be too harsh, though, the idea of the rolls is for them to feel unsafe (all the rolls behind the GM screen as anything perception).

Also stealth rolls, if missed the enemy will be alerted, but they don't know if they missed them, so more tension.

Use the maps only after they have rolled and successfully passed the skill rolls, as the map means awareness of their surroundings.

You may have their miniatures/counters in formation (like old school marching formation) but don't deploy them in the map until real awareness is achieved. They don't know if a friend is behind them, they trained and trust that their friend is where he/she is supposed to be. When you are with a helmet and heavy mask you don't really know a lot of thinks, you just do things as you trained and have to trust in your team to do things as expected.

If a player ask "is Player A behind me?" yo tell him/her "you don't know for sure, but Player A should be behind you at 5 o clock". Thinks like touching shoulders is used for that reason in breaching and other CQB.