Transhumanism and Society

[Flyndaran]

There's also how politics would change as the climate becomes so out of whack that no one could deny man-made effects.
Nations suffering because of major powers excessive pollution would likely lead to real eco-terrorism. Rather than the sporadic "minor" events we have now.

There's also the beneficial trade effects of a real Northwest passage as the polar cap melts.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

You appear to have based the deeper analysis in this particular write-up on ideological assumptions about the way the world works that I don't buy into.

The basic points are: A) If you change something signifigantly, you change the power relationships it exists within. B) If you change the power relationships in any group, there will be some kind of conflict. C) The greater the change the greater the conflict. D) If you change the power relationships between nations, war is a likely form of conflict.

Since Transhumanism can make very basic changes that have vast implications, relatively large resaults would come out of the changes.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

How is that different from now?

As I see most wars coming out of attempts to modify the power relationships between nations, not much. It's simply a new cause. And a new cause with odd surprises along the way.

Not all for improved health; some is for exploitation and disenfranchisment as you mentioned

If the members of group A become much healthier, smarter, and longer lived than the members of group B, then group A will achieve many ambitions and goals that group B never had a chance to go for. Concider the medieval wars between Genoa and Veince. Genoa had scads of problems that Venice never had, Genoa had to divide it's energies in order to keep up with Venice. This led the people of Genoa to hate Venice in a way Venice never had to duplicate. Genoa thus took destructive risks and entered into wars with Venice for hatred of Venice and a desperate need to beat Venice. This behavior did hurt Venice, but it destroyed Genoa. Group B is in the role of Genoa.

Look at Russia. Putin is a fairly standard Kleptocrat and he needs to be afraid of democracy. When the Ukrainians looked at Russia and then the EU it didn't take long for the majority of them to say the EU looks better. The EU did nothing to Russia except stay independent of Russia and take good care of themselves. Russia has not taken good care of itself and the Ukrainians know this. Russian finds it can't compete with the EU by peaceful means, so he tries "war." I put war in quotes because I assume Putin would lie and say this isn't a war.

If I had the Magic to turn the whole USA transhuman tomorrow (pick your own bag of really impressive goodies), and I did that, every other nation on Earth would find it's relationships both to America and each other changed. If I quadrupled the average American's lifespan, thus allowing individual Americans to build skill and experience over generations of other peoples lives, how could those dependent on skilled industries hope to keep up? If I doubled the IQs (treating IQ as something real and meaningful here) of all Americans and gave every American a photographic memory and a knack for invention as well, who could tell what we'd do or come up with next? They'd be helpless children. They'd reject that role quickly.

Where were the smallpox vaccine wars, again?

Those nations that had the vaccine were more stable than those that didn't or were slow adopters. The 19th century records the fates of those that lacked that stability. Once improved medicine allow European exploration of Africa, European exploitation followed. Medicine has consequinces.

[combatmedic]

If I had the magic power to upgrade everybody in a state like that...I'd do it to the Russian Federation just to **** off Astromancer.

Soooper Putin!

Yes, I'm teasing you about bringing up off-topic current events.

That's an interesting Venice-Genoa analogy, BTW.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

If I had the magic power to upgrade everybody in a state like that...I'd do it to the Russian Federation just to **** off Astromancer.

Soooper Putin!

Yes, I'm teasing you about bringing up off-topic current events.

That's an interesting Venice-Genoa analogy, BTW.

If you gave Putin both Empathy and foresight, I wonder if he'd change for the better?

[smurf]

You are both misconstruing that society is based on the will of individuals and not the will of a class wanting the best deal and position out of society.

In Appleseed there are biroids that do not complain. They can do the worst work in crappy conditions and die at the end of it without complaining.

Scenarios that were in Equilibrium and THX 1138 and Gattaca.

Is Transhumanism about control over society. Not about helping everyone but helping society to move along. All forms of rebellion quashed, individuality crushed with only the wealthiest allowed to have any form of expression.

Penal codes would be designed to speed up ageing (Zardoz). Why imprison people when you can take 2 years out of their life instead or more.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by smurf

Is Transhumanism about control over society.

No, it's not . If anything, it's about freedom from being controlled through the limitations of need.

[jbalsle]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

My thesis is simple, any really signifigant Transhuman breakthough would radically alter society. Radical alterations of society would radically transform the power relationships within and between societies. Radical transformations of power relationships eventually lead to war, both because those who've lost power try to regain it, and those who've gained power want to use it.

To me, Transhumanism is the lighter, brighter side of the coin to Cyberpunk. Transhumanism is the belief that people will stop being people, and instead, aspire to being something better, instead becoming more than human, or H+ to borrow the icon from one of the magazines advocating for the Transhumanist movement.

Cyberpunk takes the technologies of the future, and injects today's people into it. Instead of cheap or freely available advances in science, instead of governments propping people up in the face of an AI undermining of the cost of labor, instead of a society uplifted by the advances of science, science is instead used to deepen the divisions between people and maintain the status quo.

You've picked up on the underlying Cyberpunk themes. THS takes a mostly optimistic view, and postulates that Transhumanism will bring about a new period of prosperity. There are upheavals, caused by the disruptive nature of technology, but they are for the most part limited. However, if you dig into the setting, you'll see one area of strife of the nature you mentioned. In the setting, there is the Trans-Pacific Socialist Alliance, a group of nations united by their acceptance of the ideology of 'Nano-Socialism' (AKA, Information Socialism, or the elimination of IP in all its forms). They came into existence in the wake of academics and poor nations complaining that the rich nations had all the best technology locked down with oppressive IP laws. Essentially, the TPSA (renamed from TSA to distinguish it from the real-life Transportation Safety Agency) was a group of Software pirates that had banded together on a national basis. About 10 years before the start of the game, a war had broken out between the TPSA and non-TPSA nations which has left effects on the present day of THS, over the idea that the TPSA would produce knockoffs of other countries IP. The war didn't decide anything (for good reason, that would have eliminated an opportunity to explore that aspect of the modern world), but it sure highlighted the disparity between the haves (holders of IP) and the have-nots (those who believed that IP was oppressive).

Though THS is more Transhumanist than other settings, it's still not fully Transhumanist. Wars occur over these sort of differences of opinions, and there are very brutal dictatorships that use the best technology stolen from the most advanced democracies to oppress their citizens, but on the whole, the setting is more optimistic than pessimistic. However, the pessimism is there. If you want to explore it, you certainly can, especially on a regional basis.

This is why I like THS as a setting, and why I don't care much for the 'techno-rapture' version of the Singularity and Transhumanism espoused by the traditional supporters of Transhumanism. Like so many other -isms (Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, etc), the idea looks good on paper, but once you start adding people, it goes down the toilet.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by smurf

You are both misconstruing that society is based on the will of individuals and not the will of a class wanting the best deal and position out of society.

In Appleseed there are biroids that do not complain. They can do the worst work in crappy conditions and die at the end of it without complaining.

Scenarios that were in Equilibrium and THX 1138 and Gattaca.

Is Transhumanism about control over society. Not about helping everyone but helping society to move along. All forms of rebellion quashed, individuality crushed with only the wealthiest allowed to have any form of expression.

Penal codes would be designed to speed up ageing (Zardoz). Why imprison people when you can take 2 years out of their life instead or more.

ZARDOZ!

Smurf-future rules.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by jbalsle

Cyberpunk takes the technologies of the future, and injects today's people into it. Instead of cheap or freely available advances in science, instead of governments propping people up in the face of an AI undermining of the cost of labor, instead of a society uplifted by the advances of science, science is instead used to deepen the divisions between people and maintain the status quo.

Trust me when I say I'm willing to see radical changes in society, many people on these boards are, but different aspects of the Status Quo will always find defenders for reasons both generous and selfish (sometimes the same individual will have both types of motive at the same time). There is no change however noble and fine that won't have it's bitter detractors. Transhumanism, because of it's magnifigant promise and glorious possiblities, is particularly terrifying to many different people.

You've picked up on the underlying Cyberpunk themes. THS takes a mostly optimistic view, and postulates that Transhumanism will bring about a new period of prosperity.

Free societies and freer societies will get that prosperity. Unfree societies will strive to keep properity at bay (read The Dictator's Handbook and Why Nations Fail to see why many powerful people would fear prosperity). Those societies that can't enjoy the benefits of the prosperty will bitterly resent those that enjoy those benefits.