Making Bank with Earth to Stone

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Rupert

As there's no method of dispelling mentioned, the only way is to put it in an no-mana zone, and even that only suspends the effect. The question that I find interesting is: "How far down a manufacturing or consumption chain does the stuff have to go, and how different need it become, before a no-mana zone doesn't cause it to revert into it's original form?"

The logical alternative to never, is any at all causes it to revert. That is working from the rather standard ruling that breaking a magic item destroys the enchantment, significantly altering a created or transformed chunk of something ends the effect. This pretty much rules out created raw materials being good for much of anything. Of course that makes conjured food non-nutritious (and conjured air unbreathable if breathing works biochemically in your setting, which given elemental magic it probably should not), but still.

[hal]

One of my regrets with GURPS MAGIC for 4e, is that the author(s) had an opportunity to define terms and concepts, but failed to do so in a satisfactory manner.

What I use for my own campaign worlds involving magic is this:

Natural World: these are things or processes that occur naturally in a non-mana dependent fashion. It is the default setting for the universe in that the functions and definitions work in a no-mana zone.

Magic dependency: these are things that require magic to start the process up, maintain it, and ultimately, reverts back to the natural state in the absence of magic functionality.

For instance, one can use magic to freeze a mass of water into Ice. The moment the process that creates the ice concludes, absent magic to keep the process ongoing, the properties of the ice revert to the natural world. A perfect example of this in GURPS MAGIC would be the HEAT spell. Here, you use magic to apply heat to a physical or natural object. Once the spell aspects cease to add more heat, the object will begin to cool naturally. IGNITE FIRE is another example, where you ignite a natural object and if it would burn naturally in the first place, the ignite spell will cause it to ignite and burn naturally. CREATE FIRE on the other hand, creates a natural fire that requires no fuel to be present at the time of the flame's creation. If it is created in mid-air, gravity will take control of it and bring the flame as well as its magical fuel sustenance - to the ground.

If Create Food were a spell that creates a NATURAL world item - then the issue of whether or not mana is required for the existence of the magically created apple becomes moot.

One of the things about FLESH TO STONE is the fact that somehow (magically speaking) the flesh that became stone, KNOWS that it was originally flesh. This is a magical residue of some sort, because the spell "Stone to Flesh" will not work on stone that was never flesh in the first place. Somehow - in the metaphysics of the game, the stone has this magical aura or signature or something, that permits the Stone to Flesh spell to work. Could one for example, use the spell REMOVE AURA on a stone statue that once was a living being, and when STONE TO FLESH is cast, make it so that the spell won't work? The correct answer seems to be "no - it can't."

My point here is relatively simple. If - in order to contravene the natural order of things (ie, the state that exists within a no-mana zone) - magic must be applied in a constant manner, then by definition, it either requires an ongoing aspect to it (ie, has a time duration, a renew energy functionality of sorts, and failing to maintain the spell causes the effects to revert back to the natural order) or it requires an enchantment aspect (ie fixed so that it always defies the natural state of existence in some fashion).

Instantaneous: spells like Create Food should have been given this classification. Whether the spell finds an apple from somewhere else and brings it to the caster, or takes the perfect Ideal of an apple, and pulls it outside of the dimension of perfect things into the natural world is largely immaterial. The apple is "Natural". FLESH TO STONE should not have been given this classification, but instead, PERMANENT. This is largely because of the "signature aspect" of flesh to stone spell.

Temporary: Spells that require energy to maintain, and can be maintained after the initial duration of the spell would come under this heading. The reason being, once you stop applying the magical effects to contravene the natural order of things - the natural order of the universe halts the magical results. HEAT functions in this precise fashion in that once the heat is applied via magic, the item will heat up per the spell's effects, but once the spell's effects end, the natural order asserts itself and begins to use the laws of entropy etc, to bring the hotter object into consistent temperature with its surroundings.

Lasting: While the description for this in GURPS MAGIC (pg 10) makes sense, in some ways the best way to describe lasting spells are those spells that continue with some level of ongoing magical effect, but does not require concentration on the part of the spell caster to maintain. An example of this would be those illusion spell INDEPENDENCE (in my opinion). The caster does not need to concentrate on his spell, and it will end when the underlying spell it depends upon, ends.

Permanent: This one is a hard one for me to justify overall. Here's why. If it requires mana to function and the removal of mana causes the effect to cease to be - then it is mana dependent, which makes it effectively like any other spell with a duration or effect or what have you. If an "apple" is a permanent thing that requires mana to exist and ceases to exist when there is no mana, then the moment it goes into a dead mana zone, it can no longer be picked up and moved outside of the no mana zone.



Enchantment: This is the final category that effectively allows for magical processes to continue to exist as an ongoing event. To put it in a way that may make better sense, it is the means for melding or merging the natural order of things with the magical such that the magical structure does not disappear upon contact with mana per se, but continues despite the lack in a dormant state. It can be affixed to a natural object, moved to a no mana region, and then moved OUT of the no mana region due to the natural item it is affixed upon, being moved out. If FLESH TO STONE were to have been labeled an "Enchantment" - would it function any differently than it does with the "Permanent" label? Move a Statue that once was living into a no mana zone, and the statue comes to life right? Same deal with the idea of the spell being an enchantment. Once the enchanted person is moved to a no mana zone, they revert back to their natural selves. Place them in a mana region that is not null, and they turn back to stone.

Having specific definitions on what is "Natural" and what is "Metaphysical" (ie, non-natural or magical) would have helped greatly where it comes to the spells in GURPS MAGIC.

[hal]

Since I didn't want to run into the hard limit of how many characters I was using in a post, this follow up thought should make things a bit more interesting...

A spell researcher can create a spell as they see fit, subject to the approval of the GM.

Now, let's take a hypothetical exercise in a magical universe, where a Magical Professor teaching five students hands them an assignment to create a spell that will be known as "Shape Change to Bear Cub".

Student One researches the spell as an Instantaneous Spell duration type. Student Two researches his version as a Temporary Spell. Student Three researches the spell as Lasting spell, and yup, Student four researches it as a Permanent Spell, while the last one, doesn't much care about the spell itself, but researches how to make it functionally an enchantment.

How would those spells differ from each other in game terms? The instantaneous spell version changes the person into a bear cub, and makes the change permanent in the sense that if the person walks into a no-mana zone, he remains a bear cub. Presumably, the individual in all regards, become a natural bear cub indistinguishable from any other natural bear cub save that it once was human. The second approach requires a bit of energy to prime the pump so to speak, and then requires a constant application of magical energy to retain the new form for the target of the spell. Stop applying the energy - or have the bear cub walk into a no mana zone, and it ceases to be a bear cub, but takes back on its natural state as a human being. Now the third method would seem counter-intuitive (ie, the Lasting effect) - but what if it were designed such, that the only way the spell ends, is if a set condition occurs? Perhaps it works until an eclipse occurs on the 10th sunday of the year. If that situation never occurs, then the poor individual remains a bear cub indefinitely. I submit, that the spell ENSORCEL (pg. 60)transforms any temporary spell into a lasting spell (for 200 x the normal energy cost!). And finally, the enchanter figures a way to make an object be affixed with the capability to transform its user/wearer into a bear cub. It might require some 300 enchantment days, or 3 hours of quick and dirty enchantment for 300 energy. Either way, it works in such a manner as the underlying magical effect remains in a no mana zone affixed to a natural object, and resumes once the person takes the object out of a no mana zone.

Five different aspects of the same "spell" - and can be done in such a way that each would be its own spell, different in some ways, from the other versions.

GURPS MAGIC when it was first introduced as GURPS FANTASY first edition, was largely a collection of ad-hoc spells without any real attempts per se, to standardize the spells. Over time, the magic aspects for GURPS grew to contain over 800+ spells. It is about time, that someone standardize the whole mess, or give rules for how to standardize the spells as GM's and players desire - and to give the GM's a tool for determining what happens if a special set of circumstances arise - such as eating magical fruit that disappears in a no mana zone, and said fruit having been digested and distributed throughout the eater's body.

In the end? That's what most GM's do anyhow. They make a ruling in the middle of game play, and try to make their best judgement going forward.

So, back to the original poster's thread comments regarding breaking a game setting with some of the spells in GURPS...

Spells are simple. They have a name, a Spell type (ie missile, information, area, regular etc). They have a duration type. They have an effect. They usually have a magic item description on how long it takes to enchant an item with specific properties. It was all done by fiat in the beginning. There is no reason that it can't be FIXED to your desire, or what have you.

GURPS WITCH WORLD organized spell colleges by color rather than by the standard collages given in GURPS MAGIC. GURPS THAUMATOLOGY gave us ways to tweak spells. So - tweak them. ;)

The books even suggest that GM's do so if it makes them happy. If the ENLARGE spell had an additional line to it that read as "A maximum size increase possible with this spell is limited to the caster's magery, where magery 1 allows for one size difference larger, and magery 3 allows up to 3 size differences larger" - then Enlarge could not be abused in the manner that Anthony suggested many (MANY) moons ago in the forums. If the energy cost for EARTH TO STONE were based on cubic feet rather than cubic yards, the energy costs would be 27 times higher than they are now. If the spell's duration were changed to lasts 1 hour, maintained for half the cost" then we're simply changing its effects from Permanent to Temporary, and listing the duration.

Adding "Magery 3" and IQ 12+ is one way of limiting how many mages can do a given spell, thereby limiting its effects on the overall society in question (assuming that there aren't that many Magery 3 IQ 12+ individuals in the game world!).

Now, just to be the devil's advocate here...

In a new thread, discuss what would happen if...

Certain spells can only be cast by those with Magery 3, and the numbers of those with Magery 3 are HIGHLY limited. I'll supply a given set of parameters an people can offer how THEY think life would evolve for the poor Magery 3 character...

;)

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

I had a group of adventurers in a fantasy setting traipsing through a dungeon. They got in some trouble and decided that it would be better to close off the main tunnel entrance into this particular dungeon than to allow whatever was in there to get out.

They found a constriction in the tunnels where the passage way was about 5 feet high by about 3 feet wide. They brought some earth down into the tunnel and began forming up a dirt plug about 3 feet thick. They took their time and made sure that the dirt was floor-to-roof and wall-to-wall. They even chipped away at the surrounding stone so some of the dirt would go into the rock.

The wizard's original plan was to cast Earth to Stone but when he read the spell he realized he could make this a solid iron barrier. We rounded everything up and decided that the earthen plug was 2 cubic yards (5' tall x 3' wide x 3' thick) for the sake of the spell's fatigue cost.

Roll a few dice and *POOF* Iron plug.

After this, the players began talking about using this spell to make steel for armor and weapons, the wizard (improvising and trying to not make the spell an easy way for his warriors to make an easy buck by selling steel to the smithy) said, "Steel is a very complex alloy with many valuable properties from each of its component parts. If I could have made the earthen plug into steel, of course I would have because of its superior strength. I was able to create iron because it is a naturally found mineral of Earth and falls into the domain of Earthen spells."

(I thought this was a nice piece of role playing and improvisation but it sent me into a panic)

The other players all stopped talking and slowly turned to me (their GM) with a questioning look. The player of the wizard had a look of true regret.

Then one of the other players said, "Aren't gold and silver natural minerals of the earth?"

The dwarf stated, "Aye, and platinum as well!"

So there is my dilemma. Any suggestions?

I'm a bit lost. I assume you're talking about the Earth to Stone spell (p. B245). I don't see how the wizard's player "realized he could make this a solid iron barrier." Earth Spells (Ibid.) says "Except as noted, none of these spells affect stone or metal." which I would extend to mean if stone or metal isn't mentioned as an end product, you can't do that either.

The Earth to Stone spell states that you can turn earth or clay into hard stone but not into gemstone. This is more or less the wording for the 3e version of the spell as well. There is nothing in that wording that would lead me to believe that Earth could be turned into metal using this spell. At best, I'd say that you could turn the Earth involved into the relevant ore (if the ore is a hard stone), so the wizard could create a plug of iron ore but not one of pure iron. Likewise he could create a plug of pitchblende containing uranium ore but not pure uranium, or even the concentrated uranium ore, or he could create bauxite but not pure aluminum. Ores which occur as pure metals, gold and quicksilver (mercury) are the two that spring to mind, couldn't be created using Earth to Stone.

If the wizard can only create an ore which needs to be crushed and then smelted, yielding less than a ton of metal from a ton of the ore, then the wizard isn't going to upset the economy too badly. At best, he could create a surface mine which doesn't require digging down and shoring shafts to get at the ore. In cases like bauxite, it's improbable that the ore can be smelted at all, using the existing technology.

Unfortunately, you'd have to make this a retroactive ruling to be a useful solution to your dilemma and I'm unsure how comfortable you or your players would be with doing so.

[a humble lich]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I'm a bit lost. I assume you're talking about the Earth to Stone spell (p. B245). I don't see how the wizard's player "realized he could make this a solid iron barrier." Earth Spells (Ibid.) says "Except as noted, none of these spells affect stone or metal." which I would extend to mean if stone or metal isn't mentioned as an end product, you can't do that either.

I'm fairly sure that it is the version from GURPS Magic which expands the spell in the basic set with, "For double energy cost, turns an item of earth or clay into metal." I agree, by default Earth spells would not include metals unless explicitly stated, but in this case it is fairly explicit.

[hal]

Originally Posted by a humble lich

I'm fairly sure that it is the version from GURPS Magic which expands the spell in the basic set with, "For double energy cost, turns an item of earth or clay into metal." I agree, by default Earth spells would not include metals unless explicitly stated, but in this case it is fairly explicit.

What was done was that the author(s) of GURPS MAGIC for 4e, was to merge two spells together into one. They were EARTH TO STONE from the original GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition (now GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC) AND STONE TO METAL from GURPS GRIMOIRE. The initial intent to keep the original spell from being a money maker was poorly implemented in the first place (one could turn earth to marble for instance) and thoroughly overturned in the STONE TO METAL spell itself. Even something as simple as granite becomes a money maker in large volumes.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Railstar

The spell description says it turns an item of stone into a simple metal like bronze or iron.

To me the bronze part tells me the spell interprets "simple" differently to our modern understanding of chemistry. Bronze is fine but steel isn't, even though bronze is also an alloy (though perhaps the difference is because steel is part carbon and carbon isn't a metal?).

I'd recommend using alchemy for your inspiration rather than chemistry. Say that gold is a "noble metal" rather than a "base metal" such as iron.

Honestly, this seems like the best & simplest solution to me.