Question about cutting a throat.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by safisher

Ah. The purpose of rules is not always to be so explicit. In many cases, the author is trying to provide some narrative or descriptive structure, and that is all. If it were as explicit as some would like, it would need to say whether this worked against other structures, you know, beyond the human mouth: mandibles, beaks, tentacled orifice, etc., and so on. Further, I'm not sure it would totally silence the victim. It expect their might be gurgling, hissing, groaning, etc. How loud? Well, that's another paragraph. Sometimes, because of word count or even authorial focus, you just can't/won't outline every possible nuance.That's why the GM exists.

True enough, though you could give examples for a human and a rough modifier on a hearing roll. That might have been better-placed in Action 2, though, I suppose.

I don't think that has precedent in GURPS. By being grappled you suffer reduced defenses at some point; I'm not sure if by grappling someone you get extra damage or an easier chance to hit.

It may not have precedent, but it makes sense to me *shrug*

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

These are the two most important parts often overlooked in larger-than-life fiction. In movies and video games, skeevy little weasels with low ST and dinky-small knives kill instantly from behind. In real life, beefy killers with croc-skinning knives need up to a minute to complete the deed. Also in reality, weaker guys with smaller knives end up stabbing a lot, which is where you get the news reports of 20, 30, even 40 or more wounds in an incident; the mean number of stabs in a nonlethal knife assault varies between 2 and 3, depending on whose reports you read.

A note for assassins, though: without effective (surgical!) medical help, even the smallest Vitals wound (1 point impaling) seems, from my monte carlo simulation, to cause the average person enough expected bleeding to go through 4 death checks.

So a skeevy little weasel with low ST probably can't instantly kill, but they can still deliver a death sentence. EDIT: to a normal person. A HT 14 PC doesn't have much to worry about!

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

A note for assassins, though: without effective (surgical!) medical help, even the smallest Vitals wound (1 point impaling) seems, from my monte carlo simulation, to cause the average person enough expected bleeding to go through 4 death checks.

So a skeevy little weasel with low ST probably can't instantly kill, but they can still deliver a death sentence. EDIT: to a normal person. A HT 14 PC doesn't have much to worry about!

All of this is quite true in reality, too. Indeed, a lot of confusion about knives comes from crossed wires on their effectiveness as murder tools vs. their effectiveness as combat weapons. If you wish to kill someone, then a nicked artery of any size or a hole in anything vital will do the job in tens of seconds to a few hours; this is where the "just being touched by a knife is deadly" point of view comes from, and why those who do knife drills consider any touch a loss. If you wish to defeat a foe instantly or in a second or two, then you have to inflict massive damage to muscle, bone, and connective tissue; blood loss can be effective in this role, too, but it must be catastrophic and immediate, which results from tearing things open, not just leaving a leaking cut or puncture. The latter picture is where military knife work lives, and why those who train it rely on power.

Big confusion results from cops and self-defense instructors driving home the first kind of thing – any nick can leave you bleeding out, regardless of how small the knife or its wielder, so respect knives – but referring to it as having something to do with combat. It doesn't; it's about street survival. Actual combat knife work is something else, and emphasizes rushing and overpowering, and seriously deep hacking and stabbing. That requires powerful, deep wounds that keep the target from fighting back. The trouble is, the two sorts of skills and instructors overlap, and bad information gets passed.

In game terms, the idea of inflicting enough HP through basic damage rolls that your foe dies in a few seconds isn't unrealistic, but it doesn't reflect the majority of lethal wounds received in action, which kill when the target bleeds out tens of seconds or minutes later, or dies of organ failure or sepsis well after that. Realistically, even 1 HP of injury to skull, vitals, or arteries, or a major wound from a cutting, impaling, or piercing attack to any body part, is a kill, absent medical intervention (and sometimes with intervention). Killing on the spot, by beating the target down to -HP or worse, using anything less than explosives or support weapons, is the realm of specially trained operators. The majority of such people are very fit, very trained, and attack from surprise. They don't slash and run; they grapple, carve deep, and hold on until blood loss drops their target.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Langy

That makes no mention at all of silencing opponents, only that it closes the mouth.

Does it say that it doesn't silence them? Huh? Does it? Where does it say that?

...seriously, give it a rest. You have your answer. How much noise do you think someone can make with a closed mouth, anyway? "Mmm hf nmf mm" doesn't usually carry very well.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Realistically, even 1 HP of injury to skull, vitals, or arteries, or a major wound from a cutting, impaling, or piercing attack to any body part, is a kill, absent medical intervention (and sometimes with intervention).

The former is pretty sell supported by the serious bleeding mechanics, but the latter is rather less so. A moderate Major Wound to the torso or a limb might get up to one death check, if the victim isn't particularly sturdy, but two is unlikely. So the victim has a pretty good chance of making it out of the minutes to hours mortality range.

Of course, they might die of a subsequent infection, but the wound infection rules make that fairly unlikely. If they receive absolutely no care they may die on account of how hard it is to sustain yourself, let alone rest enough to regain HP, while already at negative HP. But at that point it seems more that they're dying of being left for dead than dying of their wound.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The former is pretty sell supported by the serious bleeding mechanics, but the latter is rather less so. A moderate Major Wound to the torso or a limb might get up to one death check, if the victim isn't particularly sturdy, but two is unlikely. So the victim has a pretty good chance of making it out of the minutes to hours mortality range.

Of course, they might die of a subsequent infection, but the wound infection rules make that fairly unlikely. If they receive absolutely no care they may die on account of how hard it is to sustain yourself, let alone rest enough to regain HP, while already at negative HP. But at that point it seems more that they're dying of being left for dead than dying of their wound.

Bleeding and infection are generally "being left for dead", yes - the fluffiness of generic infection rules aside, generic wound infection isn't gangrene and other more serious wound infections.

I had surgery three years ago, and for various reasons, ended up with a bacterial colony on my wound site that did nothing more than make it smell kind of unpleasent and utterly prevent the wound from healing. It was a six month battle by nursing staff to beat the infection into submission - the only reason I didn't end up with a secondary, and far more serious, infection was the combination of regular professional personal attention I received from nursing staff, the availability of modern medical supplies, and modern antibiotics.

Secondary infection was a constant worry, and I had a couple of bad scares. I'd say the most generous part about the Infection rules is that they don't remind you to keep checking for more Infections.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Bleeding and infection are generally "being left for dead", yes - the fluffiness of generic infection rules aside, generic wound infection isn't gangrene and other more serious wound infections.

In many historical periods, infection was almost as likely to happen with the best possible care as with none at all. At TL3 the benefit of 'medical care' is mostly having someone take care of you so you can get bed rest. And as I said, by the book infections are a joke.

The risk of being left for dead is starvation and exposure, either killing you directly or weakening you enough for disease to finish the job. Or maybe being eaten by an opportunistic predator that thinks it has good odds against someone who's likely to pass out every second in combat.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I had surgery three years ago, and for various reasons, ended up with a bacterial colony on my wound site that did nothing more than make it smell kind of unpleasent and utterly prevent the wound from healing. It was a six month battle by nursing staff to beat the infection into submission - the only reason I didn't end up with a secondary, and far more serious, infection was the combination of regular professional personal attention I received from nursing staff, the availability of modern medical supplies, and modern antibiotics.

Secondary infection was a constant worry, and I had a couple of bad scares. I'd say the most generous part about the Infection rules is that they don't remind you to keep checking for more Infections.

I agree, infections should be dangerous. But the RAW on them don't work that way.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Maz

...is a bit scared that people know so much about neck-slicing on this forum >.<.

Taught in the Boy Scouts for me. Also, Fairbairn and modern US methods are available online and you can practise them with wooden knives.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Taught in the Boy Scouts for me. Also, Fairbairn and modern US methods are available online and you can practise them with wooden knives.

Posh. We all know that sneakery, throat-cutting, and other ninja-assassin skills are core curriculum in Icelandic law schools.

:)

Also....*sniffs*....I love these boards....:)

[sjard]

<Moderator> Keep it civil here please. </Moderator>