Weapon Masters can't take it

[Gef]

They can dish it out, damage that is, but they can't take it. The cinematic combat rules favor increased damage (and also improved active defenses countered by the other cinematic guy's improved attack frequency). The extra damage helps mow through mooks, which is certainly cinematic, but it also ensures that the climactic duel with the evil weapon master is short, which goes against the cinematic tradition. I'd like to find a way to change that without giving those same weapon masters the ability to shrug off bullets with bare skin.

Even with a modest point budget, you can build that cinematic warrior with ST 13, the magic number, because it gives a second die of swing damage, plus Weapon Master for his favorite weapon, which in conjunction with skill (DX+2) gives a damage bonus of +2 per die, net +4. That's enough by itself to overcome typical low-tech armor (say mail), and it raises total damage enough to overcome edge protection, so that a typical hit from an axe or broadsword inflicts a major wound and may cause unconsciousness in a normal man.

For a weapon master to stand up to his own kind as well as two regular soldiers stand up to each other, they each need to be able to withstand an extra 4 damage per hit. The simple way to fix this is to let 'em buy some DR, but the necessary amount is such that their skin is like mail, and in conjunction with actual mail, complete protection against the attacks of non-cinematic foes. Of course, the weapon master should be able to take on hordes of mooks, but I'd like to see that come from his weapon mastery, not his elephant-like hide. Okay, how about this? DR (Tough Skin, Limited Defense: Only Versus Physical Chi-based Damage, Power Modifier: Chi, Force Field for Eyes Only)? It costs 1pt per level, so for just 4 points, you block the bonus damage of a ST 13 weapon master (unless he changes damage type with an imbuement), without blocking everything else. For another 2pt, you block the bonus damage of a ST 17 weapon master. This requires treating that bonus damage as "chi-based" even if the advantage doesn't have a power modifier.

I kinda like that, but it doesn't go far enough. What if the two weapon masters use power blow? Now you need DR 15 to 20 in order to stop that bonus damage, oh, and you'll need to Harden it against breaking blow. Also, in some campaigns, the "base" cinematic advantages make you eligible for Striking ST, which of course would be cheap with a Power Modifier and Accessibility limitation (only the weapons to which Weapon Master applies). See, it's easy to find ways to beef up damage for a cinematic fighter, but I can't find an easy to counter that. You can buy up defenses, but cinematic fighters also have high attack frequency; it becomes a toss-up of who rolls a crit first.

What I'm looking for is a way for cinematic warriors to soak the EXTRA damage of other cinematic warriors, and just that damage. Any ideas? Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks,

GEF

[lexington]

Honestly Weapon Masters being able to kill each other with a single blow meshes perfectly with my image of them fighting each other in most settings. A contest of incredible skill where every blow would be fatal if it landed.

Still:
If they're wearing armor they'll benefit from the edge protection rules in Low-Tech (box on page 102).
Lots of cinematic characters have a Vitality Reserve or Ablative DR so they can soak up tons of damage on the cheap but that isn't limited to attacks from other Weapon Masters.
You could give them IT:DR from Powers with (Only Against Weapon Masters) or (Only Against Chi Powers) but that would give odd results.
If you're willing to get really strange let them buy Static (Chi).

[Vynticator]

Lexington beat me to it. Ablative HP was the idea that sprang to mind.

[Stripe]

Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) from Powers, pp. 52-53.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Vynticator

Lexington beat me to it. Ablative HP was the idea that sprang to mind.

Sorry, I should've cataloged that above. I certainly don't discount the idea of cinematic warriors having Ablative DR, but one Power Blow and it's all gone. The cinematic tradition is that Zorro fights the governor for minutes, and heck, before cinema, Arthurian legend tells of battles that took hours between knights of the round table.

I also like an Energy Reserve: Get that Feverish Defense and Second Wind. To avoid making healers useless, I put a time limit on the hit points recovered with Second Wind; the adrenalin subsides and you feel your wounds. Still, I would expect a 100pt Weapon Master PC to net Striking ST 17+ with his main weapon for damage 1d+8 or so, with Power Blow not yet at a reliable level for instant use. That overwhelms edge protection and chews through Ablative DR.

GEF

PS: The 100pt build might look like this:

30 ST 13
10 Will 12
15 Very Fit
20 Weapon Master
20 Talent +4 including main weapon and Soldier
10 Striking ST +4 (Chi, Main Weapon Only)
10 Ablative DR 10
-50 Disads
35 Skills and style perks including 16 for weapon skill 18

So, rapid strike twice at 15 for 3d+6 with a baseball bat (because you can't afford a fine sword yet), parry at 15 and 14 with a medium shield. Assume DR 4 armor at least for the chest. You and your twin expect to score on each other within 15 turns, for 16 damage. First hit wipes out ablative DR, second hit wipes out hit points!

I gather that folks on this forum favor higher starting totals. They'd likely be spent on Combat Reflexes, Wealth for better gear, raising attributes besides ST, and some indviduality. The gear makes for much more dangerous characters; I find that the problem becomes more significant at higher point totals.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) from Powers, pp. 52-53.

I hadn't considered that one, but you're right. No matter how high damage goes, Damage Reduction always applies some benefit. It's expensive, but limiting it to chi-based physical damage will bring that down.

GEF

[Gef]

Originally Posted by lexington

If you're willing to get really strange let them buy Static (Chi).

And I certainly hadn't considered that one. Weird mechanic but it could fill the bill. Thanks.

[Miles]

A duel of weapon masters shouldn't be about soaking up damage! They should both be dodging and parrying with acrobatic grace until one of them makes a fatal slip.

Weapon Masters have access to advantages that more realistic warriors don't. Use a liberal mix of Enhanced Defenses, Acrobatic Dodges (and parries), Feverish Defense (which may not be allowed to non-cinematic warriors), Precognitive Parry (good for +1 in melee combat), Sensitivity (to bolster that Precognitive Parry, and defend in close-combat), and Defensive Feints.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by Miles

A duel of weapon masters shouldn't be about soaking up damage! They should both be dodging and parrying with acrobatic grace until one of them makes a fatal slip.

Weapon Masters have access to advantages that more realistic warriors don't. Use a liberal mix of Enhanced Defenses, Acrobatic Dodges (and parries), Feverish Defense (which may not be allowed to non-cinematic warriors), Precognitive Parry (good for +1 in melee combat), Sensitivity (to bolster that Precognitive Parry, and defend in close-combat), and Defensive Feints.

Thanks, Miles. The problem here is that you blow it every 50 rolls or so (rule of 16) and you roll twice per defense with acrobatics; and cinematic warriors can attack several times per turn, so that's under 10 seconds 'til you're nailed, or 20 seconds with Luck if you use it for defense. That is exactly the issue I'm raising here.

[Stripe]

Don't forget Evaluate (as the weapon master parleys dramatically, parrying either furiously, sweat on his brow or effortlessly with a wry smirk), then Deceptive attack. Normally, it's best just to attack, but when hitting is so rare, this is an option and very in-genre.

Skill 20, not 18, is always my base target for 150/-75-point WM's. Even higher, when points allow.

Extra Attack is great here, and one level isn't even cinematic.