Effects of Mecha Mooks on warfare and society?

[bobadventures]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

You might want to try finding another thread where people are discussing Ultra-Tech warfare with lots and lots of flying small drones. Those are kinda different from Mecha Mooks in being more mobile and more like eggshells with sledgehämmers.

I'll check it out too, thanks! But I'm interested in the impact on ground combat as well.

[smurf]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

You might want to try finding another thread where people are discussing Ultra-Tech warfare with lots and lots of flying small drones. Those are kinda different from Mecha Mooks in being more mobile and more like eggshells with sledgehämmers.

Isn't that a bit like the droids in Clone Wars (the Lucas animation).

Seriously these droids are taken apart in their droves almost every episode. They do have laser rifles but seem inept at downing the opposition unless they have superior numbers.

[bobadventures]

Originally Posted by smurf

Isn't that a bit like the droids in Clone Wars (the Lucas animation).

Seriously these droids are taken apart in their droves almost every episode. They do have laser rifles but seem inept at downing the opposition unless they have superior numbers.

Yeah, I'd like to avoid that kind of situation in my story.

First off, stories where only one side (usually the villains) is using mecha-mooks are extremely common; I'm more interested in what sort of strategies and tactics would come into play in a situation where both sides have access to them.

And second, unlike the Clone Wars droids, I'm assuming the existence of robots that are not made of tin foil; although vicky_molokh has a valid point, that there are certainly uses for cheaply and rapidly produced disposable 'bots.

[ericthered]

Your average soldier is now an officer rather than a grunt. He directs the warfare around him. His "gun" is an entire squad of drones.

Effective mecha-mooks give a well funded side an even greater edge in combat. Modern Wars often feature one side desperately trying to whittle away the manpower of a more advanced force in an effort to leverage the one advantage they have: willing soldiers. Drones will doom this tactic, at least in the short run.

Civilian causulties may become increasingly rare, as war becomes completely mechanical. On the other hand, the lack of pity from the machines may enable even LARGER massacres and civilian slaughter.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by bobadventures

. . . I'm more interested in what sort of strategies and tactics would come into play in a situation where both sides have access to them. . .

A couple of thoughts --

1.) The supply is vital. If you can destroy the drone factory (probably a robotic facility) or eliminate imports of drones you will create a situation where one side (yours) will be losing dollars and machines and the other human lives. This may well produce surrender or a negotiated peace. There is little more demoralizing than a fight where you're losing people and they're losing office equipment with guns.

2.) As in armored warfare lots of "dead" D-mooks (drone-mooks) will be disabled on the battlefield. These, however, can be recovered, repaired, and put back into service far more cheaply than the building or purchase of a new one. So grabbing a battlefield and holding onto it will be far more important than if said battlefield's only occupants are (now useless) human corpses. See accounts of the North African campaign in WW II. Since enemy mooks will fight for you just as loyally as the ones you've made (assuming your reprogramming has worked) after a few battles both sides will be a mix of both sides' initial weapons.

Control codes will be vital. If you can decipher a foe's control commands you can hijack his army all at once. I'm sure this will be a division of modern cyberwar -- if you have the chance you can not only shut down his production and zap his communications but seize his army. This would be the dream of modern special cyberops.

3.) Operations research will be an important and ongoing part of any war, more so than now. If your combatants are D-mooks you'll have lots of options to maximize combat power -- do you flood the battlefield with a lot of cheap, expendable D-mooks or build a few super mooks that are almost unstoppable but outrageously expensive? (You might find whole battles fought over the disabled carcase of such a wonder-mook.) You might find your best building options to be different, not just war to war but campaign to campaign and even battle to battle. The old Steve Jackson game "Rivets" takes a lighthearted look at this kind of decision making.

In all these cases only rigorous operations research can give you good answers. I envisage either intelligent AI systems or a collection of eggheads processing information and making recommendations just down the hall from the battle command.

4.) As in the case of modern combat vehicles you'll find a substantial "after market" in upgrading and remodeling older versions of drones. Frex, IIRC, at least one company has a package for upgrading an M-47 US tank (vintage c. 1951) to being a modern combatant. Basically, everything but the hull is stripped out, the suspension revised, the powertrain replaced with a new, more powerful, and more fuel-efficient system, and the old 90 mm gun replaced by a modern low-recoil 105 mm with laser rangefinder and computerized control. For about 15 percent of the price of a new M-1 Abrams or LeClerc you can have a battlefield system quite capable of whipping a much larger number of old T-55s or T-62s. (Of course, the same company might go to your neighbor with a program for upgrading/modifying their ancient Soviet-era T-55s to be a modern system . . .

So even on the battlefield what appears to be an old Creakbot 1889 droid mook could be a modern and lethal device, depending on upgrades.

5.) Droid-mooks (or combat autonomous ground systems, if you want to be formal) are also the ultimate mercenaries. They will, depending on their software, kill rebellious civilians quite efficiently and without hesitation. It might be, in the extreme, possible to have a tyrant ruling only with the aid of AI and SAI systems. Even if all his people hate his guts, if he has adequate AI computing systems with modern surveillance gear he could well be able to maintain total observation of his society. With combat droids he would have the power to crush any uprising. Think Reign of Steel with one human in the loop.

About 20 years ago there was a theory that you could use modern microelectronics to monitor the subliminal quiverings of human vocal cords. You could then use modern processing systems to turn these quiverings into comprehensible speech. Since people subvocalize when they think in words, you could effectively monitor what human beings are thinking.

So. Make it mandatory for all humans to be implanted with these devices, coupled to a tiny processor and a short-range microradio. The system will send all dissident thoughts to The Ministry of Happiness for recording and also zap the offender with a small electric shock to condition them against any repetition of such bad think. This would give a mechanism for absolute social control that would be the envy of Big Brother.

"The Muktada District has crossed the line -- they've committed too much thoughtcrime. Activate the 23 and 42nd Civil Correction Regiments, surround the district, seal it off, then move in. Exterminate all inhabitants. Swing the corpses from the lampposts in the Pan Appartia district -- they need the object lesson."

Whiirr -- buzzz . . . [mechanical voice] "It has been ordered. At your command, Lordship."

[sir_pudding]

If they are really mooks like in Gundam (with the Cannon Fodder rule, and probably Melee Etiquette and Stormtrooper Marksmenship Academy), then you'll end up with warfare dominated by a handful of "hero" units. Mooks are just there to slow "hero" units down in order to allow you to deploy your own to stop them.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If they are really mooks like in Gundam (with the Cannon Fodder rule, and probably Melee Etiquette and Stormtrooper Marksmenship Academy), then you'll end up with warfare dominated by a handful of "hero" units. Mooks are just there to slow "hero" units down in order to allow you to deploy your own to stop them.

That is dependant on TL and DR(Separate terms, not "TL;DR"), at TL7, a handful of mooks can be a match against a hero simply because they can outmaneuver him by sheer number and use suicidal tactics. At TL3 however, it will be more like a knight slaughtering his way through a mob of peasants without much harm simply because his DR protects him against most weapons.
The changing factor is how easily they can punch through the hero armor and the effectiveness of suicidal collective tactics.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

That is dependant on TL and DR(Separate terms, not "TL;DR"), at TL7, a handful of mooks can be a match against a hero simply because they can outmaneuver him by sheer number and use suicidal tactics. At TL3 however, it will be more like a knight slaughtering his way through a mob of peasants without much harm simply because his DR protects him against most weapons.
The changing factor is how easily they can punch through the hero armor and the effectiveness of suicidal collective tactics.

Aren't we talking about Mecha Mooks here? So we have DR whatever (but less than hero mechs) mook drone robots with effectively 1 HP, that never defend, and basically just soak missiles from the hero mechs as they close to have a one-on-one plasma sword duel. That's the trope, yes? It doesn't exist in action fiction set in contemporary warfare or in medievalist war either. Only in anime-style mecha war.

[Tzeentch]

-- The ubiquitous nature of near-future drones and the rise of the fractal fireteam isn't really the same thing as the Mecha Mook as usually seen in fiction. In fiction any military vehicle that is blown apart at the slightest touch of a weapon to show the 1) Badassery of the heroes, 2) The horrors of war, or 3) Make cool explosions is a "Mecha Mook."

-- To represent in GURPS: The DR of a Mook Vehicle is 1. All Mook Vehicles have the Fragile (Explosive) disadvantage.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Tzeentch

-- To represent in GURPS: The DR of a Mook Vehicle is 1. All Mook Vehicles have the Fragile (Explosive) disadvantage.

You might set the DR to whatever Small Arms damage is in the setting, since Mook mechs and tanks usually can't be killed by a pistol or something. Otherwise it's Cannon Fodder as usual. 1 HP and no Active Defenses. Stormtrooper Marksmenship Academy and Melee Etiquette are common.