The Guildless (explaining what PCs are)

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

They still can be. But in a world where the gods hand out Holiness like candy on hallows eve, anyone could be a Cleric or Holy Warrior.

In such a case, getting a posting may require considerable political sway, sway the Characters do not have.

I'm not making the argument every Cleric is the Bishop of their starting Barony, or even suggesting that everyone with imbued with clerical magic is guaranteed at least a job sweeping up the temple. However, even if you don't have a job within the structure of a religion you're still a representative of that religion, still beholden to their dogma, still granted the deference of their clergy, still regulated by the enforcement of their faith. regardless of where their coin comes from, most every cleric concept would be part of a monolithic power structure in a game world. It would require some engineering to make them part of a caste of people who serve little benefit to society.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

I'm not making the argument every Cleric is the Bishop of their starting Barony, or even suggesting that everyone with imbued with clerical magic is guaranteed at least a job sweeping up the temple. However, even if you don't have a job within the structure of a religion you're still a representative of that religion, still beholden to their dogma, still granted the deference of their clergy, still regulated by the enforcement of their faith. regardless of where their coin comes from, most every cleric concept would be part of a monolithic power structure in a game world. It would require some engineering to make them part of a caste of people who serve little benefit to society.

This really isn't hard. In the Robin Hood mythos, Friar Tuck got kicked out of his order for having a problem with authority. It can be that simple. In a fantasy setting, you can also get explanations like, "The higher-ups realized the young cleric was a Weirdness Magnet, and told him, 'we think the gods are calling you to be a, um, adventuring cleric. Good luck!'"

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

However, even if you don't have a job within the structure of a religion you're still a representative of that religion, still beholden to their dogma, still granted the deference of their clergy, still regulated by the enforcement of their faith.

Or you aren't. If you never put more than the minimum points into Theology, giving a 12 as a Cleric or a 10 as a HW, you might be a pretty terrible representation of your religion. Especially the HOgre Holy Warrior...

...regardless of where their coin comes from, most every cleric concept would be part of a monolithic power structure in a game world.

Or, as I said a few times, if such monolithic power structures don't exist, it's easy to not have the be a part of them.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

It can be that simple. In a fantasy setting, you can also get explanations like, "The higher-ups realized the young cleric was a Weirdness Magnet, and told him, 'we think the gods are calling you to be a, um, adventuring cleric. Good luck!'"

Or even they had a vision that the young Clerid was destined to end up brutally dead along with 75% of those around him, so for safety sake they send him out "to spread the Good word!"


I eman... seriously, what are the odds of an adventuring Cleric having a bad end to their career? Like 9 out of 10?

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This really isn't hard. In the Robin Hood mythos, Friar Tuck got kicked out of his order for having a problem with authority. It can be that simple. In a fantasy setting, you can also get explanations like, "The higher-ups realized the young cleric was a Weirdness Magnet, and told him, 'we think the gods are calling you to be a, um, adventuring cleric. Good luck!'"

It's very simple to explain why Friar Tuck isn't controlled by his Dioces. It's more difficult to explain why his frock doesn't give him the social benefits everyone else who wears it gets, or how he has a title like "Friar" that carries real benefit within the religion or how having a bad attitude would make him any less able to pursue the valuable trade of a cleric, or why his marriage of Robin and Marrion would be honored in a society where the church controls that rite. It gets even more complicated when you have an entire segment of the religion, hundreds or thousands of clerics and laypersons who are both a part of this monolithic organization but also notably socially divorced from it.

As I said you can absolutely have Clerics and Holy Warriors that are a part of your Guildless Class because of behavior or nature of birth or any reason you want to engineer, but there would have to be a reason engineered as to why your world has people who work for the same organization, doing the same work with the same skills and holy calling, but some of them are paid lavishly and wield power that rivals nobility, and others have to get by crawling into holes in the ground and killing monsters teamed up with barbarians and thieves.

I think Robin and his Merry Men are a great example of how to work that in. It's a large group in that region who are essentially cut out of productive work despite being scouts, soldiers, clerics, holy warriors and even a knight. If that sort of situation happened often because of the Ruthless Sheriff of Nottingham you could end up with an entire class of people from all walks of life that are dispossessed from polite society and forced to do what they must to get by.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Or you aren't. If you never put more than the minimum points into Theology, giving a 12 as a Cleric or a 10 as a HW, you might be a pretty terrible representation of your religion. Especially the Holy Warrior...

Or, as I said a few times, if such monolithic power structures don't exist, it's easy to not have the be a part of them.

You being a terrible representation of your religion would be a good reason for you to be given a remote post, or be executed, or branded as a heretic. Religious punishment would be great example of engineering of how someone who's part of a church to a major god would become part of a classless caste.

Having a Theology -12/10 is aweful if you're a Canon of your faith defining church law and belief based upon apocrypha of your god, but it's respectable if you sweep up a wayside temple and hold stuff for the senior cleric during mass. In my view that's a fine minimum skill for belonging to a religion.

Being a spellcaster or warrior for a God with no terrestrial organization that supports it would require much more complex engineering than anything you've mentioned yet, especially for you to be someone who others would recognize as a Cleric or a Holy Warrior or for you to have any kind of relevant skill at Theology.

[Michael Thayne]

I think maybe I didn't explain my original idea behind the guildless clearly enough. The idea is that guildless—at least competent ones—are sort of like ronin from feudal Japan, only more heterogenous, because they include not just swordsmen but spellcasters and "master locksmiths" and so on. In feudal Japan, ronin retained many of the privileges of samurai, while simultaneously being severely limited in how they could legally earn a living, which meant their lives kind of sucked in some ways. "Guildless" is meant to be a more diverse group, which includes commoners with no special social privileges, but it's still meant to be compatible with certain forms of social privilege, including Clerical Investment, in the same way that "ronin" was. (If using Dungeon Fantasy 17, "guildless" would be compatible with Status 1, but a Status 2 person wouldn't be considered "guildless" because Status 2 is enough to automatically pay your cost of living in one specific town.)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I think maybe I didn't explain my original idea behind the guildless clearly enough. The idea is that guildless—at least competent ones—are sort of like ronin from feudal Japan, only more heterogenous, because they include not just swordsmen but spellcasters and "master locksmiths" and so on. In feudal Japan, ronin retained many of the privileges of samurai, while simultaneously being severely limited in how they could legally earn a living, which meant their lives kind of sucked in some ways. "Guildless" is meant to be a more diverse group, which includes commoners with no special social privileges, but it's still meant to be compatible with certain forms of social privilege, including Clerical Investment, in the same way that "ronin" was. (If using Dungeon Fantasy 17, "guildless" would be compatible with Status 1, but a Status 2 person wouldn't be considered "guildless" because Status 2 is enough to automatically pay your cost of living in one specific town.)

You know, I almost wonder if you just call these guys "Wanderers."

Ronin is "wave man," right? So to and fro like the waves. Also "not all Wanderers are lost," which has that Tolkien tie-in, plus true enough about adventurers.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

You know, I almost wonder if you just call these guys "Wanderers."

Ronin is "wave man," right? So to and fro like the waves. Also "not all Wanderers are lost," which has that Tolkien tie-in, plus true enough about adventurers.

”Knight errant” means “knight wandering,” with the original PIE root apparently meaning “flowing” to fit with “ronin” even more. Call them “wayfarers” if you want an Anglo-Saxon word (best kind) with a little more sense of destination, but “wanderers” works just as well.

[Michael Thayne]

I considered "drifter", "knight errant", and "hedge knight", but wasn't quite satisfied with any of them. "Knight errant" has idealistic connotations that don't fit all delvers, while "hedge knight" is a term that AFAICT doesn't exist outside of A Song of Ice and Fire. "Drifter" would be a decent term, but doesn't fully convey the limited opportunities Kromm has suggested delvers ought to face in order to get them to stick to adventuring rather than going into business as merchants. "Wayfarer" has a nice poetic ring to it, though, and I might adopt it.

[Black Leviathan]

Your religions could very easily have a tradition of having their Clerics and Holy Warriors "Wayfare" as a way to better understand the common man and during this period of their training they not only are removed from the bosom of the church but they also are looked at as a little low-class because of their association with other wayfarers and the trouble they tend to get into. Your religion could have special robes or emblems of rank that denote you are on your wayfare so you are still recognizably on your journey but still part of the church.

[Anthony]

The traditional word for this type of person is 'mercenary'.