Classic Dragonlance characters GURPSified

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

I would add a few more skills to Raistlin. These are based on my memories of the books. He should have:
- Intimidate
- Slight of hands / pick pocket or some such skill
- Fast Talk and or Acting
- Astrology or some star/moon gazing skill.
- and probably a few more that I can't remember.

I'll agree with Sleight of Hand; that's a big oversight on my part. I don't think he has Intimidate; folks are afraid of him because he's weird, not because he is threatening to knock their skulls. I wouldn't add Acting or Fast-Talk, but rather some sort of Performance, to go with Sleight of Hand. Astrology in Krynn is part of Theology.

[mlangsdorf]

Cameron's skills should be higher - he is a professional swordsman who actively gets involved in fighting. Broadsword-14 at a minimum, and a 16+ isn't unreasonable.

Even at the beginning of Chronicles, the Heroes of Lance should match up to any 250 pts Dungeon Fantasy templates.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Cameron's skills should be higher - he is a professional swordsman who actively gets involved in fighting. Broadsword-14 at a minimum, and a 16+ isn't unreasonable.

Even at the beginning of Chronicles, the Heroes of Lance should match up to any 250 pts Dungeon Fantasy templates.

I debated the first one; I might solve that by adding a point of DX. He's not a master, however.

On the second point, however, the characters are as they are. Especially in ATOG 1e, their skills were nothing special. We remember them because they were interesting as characters, not as stat blocks.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by pnewman

Right, but who says that the Towers magical fear wasn't Cosmic?

Cosmic doesn't really model it well, though. The most telling point against Cosmic is that Tasselhoff lasted much longer in the Grove than Flint did. To me, that speaks of a steadily increasing penalty to the Fright Check, which Tasselhoff was able to resist for longer because he had several levels of Fearlessness. If the fear had been Cosmic, and kender simply have Unfazeable, then both Tas and Flint should have been affected at basically the same time (possibly earlier for Tas, in fact - I would say he probably has a lower Will than Flint, overall).

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

I debated the first one; I might solve that by adding a point of DX. He's not a master, however.

On the second point, however, the characters are as they are. Especially in ATOG 1e, their skills were nothing special. We remember them because they were interesting as characters, not as stat blocks.

ATOG 1e? Not familiar with the acronym.

I don't have my copies of the original modules handy, but I believe they were all around 5th level at the start of Chronicles. To me, that puts them on par with the DF templates.

I'd bump up Cameron's skill because as it is, you have Tanis being more skilled than he is. That doesn't match anything in the source material. Cameron was at least as skilled.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

ATOG 1e? Not familiar with the acronym.

I don't have my copies of the original modules handy, but I believe they were all around 5th level at the start of Chronicles. To me, that puts them on par with the DF templates.

I'd bump up Cameron's skill because as it is, you have Tanis being more skilled than he is. That doesn't match anything in the source material. Cameron was at least as skilled.

Advanced That Other Game.

A straight level-to-point translation never works. I don't even try.

Caramon wasn't more skilled than Tanis -- Tanis was clearly more dexterous, which GURPS magnifies -- but rather, he was stronger. His +3 damage more than makes up for a single point of skill.

[Verjigorm]

Tanis, Flint, Caramon and Sturm all require Soldier at decent levels. Sturm and Flint should have the greatest levels in Soldier, while Flint, Sturm and Tanis should all have Tactics. Sturm and Tanis should both have Leadership.

I'm not sure if Tanis should have ST13. Flint does describe hims as more robust than an Elf, but in keeping in line with the old way the system work, that should translate into having more mass(elves are probably ST10, HP 8). He's never particularly noted as being extremely strong.

Caramon needs to be bigger(more Lifting ST and HP) and DUMBER. He's noted as being extremely dense and rather slow. He's also extremely massive, and routinely described as such. Wepaon Master(all) or Trained by A Master suit him.

The weapon skills are just...wrong. A first level fighter according to AD&D is to be considered an Elite, Well-trained combatant. Regular rank and file used NPC rules and were 0-level. In 3e, they would be Warriors as compared to Fighters. In either case, skill-13 does not translate to "elite". It translates to a well-trained professional soldier. In Dragons of Autumn Twilight, he accounts having slain a troll on his own, which is quite a respectable task for someone.

Let me put it like this: In Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Tanis, Sturm and Caramon fight enemies who are more skilled than the average soldier, yet they never have a bad offing of it. They kill plenty of Draconians(who are tougher and more skilled than your normal professional soldier) and scarcely sweat.

Gilthanas IS a mage. He admits to it. He also admits to being nowhere near the power of Raistlin.

Tika definitely has a high Shield skill(she becomes quite lethal with her shield!) by the later parts of the story.

[pnewman]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Cosmic doesn't really model it well, though. The most telling point against Cosmic is that Tasselhoff lasted much longer in the Grove than Flint did. To me, that speaks of a steadily increasing penalty to the Fright Check, which Tasselhoff was able to resist for longer because he had several levels of Fearlessness. If the fear had been Cosmic, and kender simply have Unfazeable, then both Tas and Flint should have been affected at basically the same time (possibly earlier for Tas, in fact - I would say he probably has a lower Will than Flint, overall).

Well the thing about that is that the fear was portrayed as increasing in power as you got closer to the Tower. I figured that it wasn't Cosmic around the edges, just right up near the fence where Tasslehof got. This would also fit it not being cosmic but just having a higher penalty to the roll, but Cosmic seemed better to me.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Tanis, Flint, Caramon and Sturm all require Soldier at decent levels. Sturm and Flint should have the greatest levels in Soldier, while Flint, Sturm and Tanis should all have Tactics. Sturm and Tanis should both have Leadership.

I'm not sure if anyone other than Caramon is a trained soldier with outright military experience.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I'm not sure if Tanis should have ST13. Flint does describe hims as more robust than an Elf, but in keeping in line with the old way the system work, that should translate into having more mass(elves are probably ST10, HP 8). He's never particularly noted as being extremely strong.

In AD&D game stats, he was.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Caramon needs to be bigger(more Lifting ST and HP) and DUMBER. He's noted as being extremely dense and rather slow. He's also extremely massive, and routinely described as such. Wepaon Master(all) or Trained by A Master suit him.

ST 16 is awfully big. And there's nothing to indicate he had the training or abilities for Weapon Master or Trained by a Master. As for his intellect, Weis and Hickman also go out of their way to show us that, in the end, Caramon isn't dumb.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

The weapon skills are just...wrong. A first level fighter according to AD&D is to be considered an Elite, Well-trained combatant. Regular rank and file used NPC rules and were 0-level. In 3e, they would be Warriors as compared to Fighters. In either case, skill-13 does not translate to "elite". It translates to a well-trained professional soldier. In Dragons of Autumn Twilight, he accounts having slain a troll on his own, which is quite a respectable task for someone.

A first level fighter isn't an experienced fighter. He's someone who has problems with a goblin warrior in one-on-one combat. In any event, "well-trained professional soldier" definitely applies to this group. They are adventurers trained in the school of hard knocks fighting. In any event, I was considering bumping up Caramon's DX a point.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Let me put it like this: In Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Tanis, Sturm and Caramon fight enemies who are more skilled than the average soldier, yet they never have a bad offing of it. They kill plenty of Draconians(who are tougher and more skilled than your normal professional soldier) and scarcely sweat.

Are draconians more skilled than a normal professional soldier? Tougher, sure, but more skilled? I don't buy that at all.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

ST 16 is awfully big. And there's nothing to indicate he had the training or abilities for Weapon Master or Trained by a Master. As for his intellect, Weis and Hickman also go out of their way to show us that, in the end, Caramon isn't dumb.

The problem is that the novels and the adventure modules don't match in many ways. The OP talked about the classic modules, not the novels, so therefore the novels should only be used to inform areas of the characters not covered by the stats and writeups in the adventures. Thus for the purposes of this thread Raistlin should rate HT10, because the modules gave him Con 10 (his poor health in the novels came from one the the module playtesters playing him that way), and his HP were about average, too.

A first level fighter isn't an experienced fighter. He's someone who has problems with a goblin warrior in one-on-one combat.

Actually, he's someone who is about equal to a goblin or orc warrior.

In any event, "well-trained professional soldier" definitely applies to this group. They are adventurers trained in the school of hard knocks fighting. In any event, I was considering bumping up Caramon's DX a point.

The heroes were actually very skilled even at the beginning by AD&D1 standards, ranging from 3rd level to 6th level.

Here's the original roster:

Tanis
5th level half-elf fighter
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 15
HP 35

Caramon
6th level human fighter
Str 18/63, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15
HP 56
[BTW, alone of the characters Caramon has no magic gear at all]

Raistlin
3rd level human magic user
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 10
HP 8

Sturm Brightblade
6th level human fighter
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 12
HP 49

Goldmoon
5th level human cleric
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 17
HP 25

Riverwind
5th level Human Ranger
Str 18/35, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 13
HP 41

Flint Fireforge
4th level dwarf fighter
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 13
HP 45

Tasslehoff Bussfoot
4th level kender thief
Str 13, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 11
HP 16
Kenders are noted as being able to taunt and being fearless and insatiably curious - those and wearing shoes are their only real differences from the default AD&D1 halfling at this point in the DL world's development.

Slightly later potential PCs (by the time they enter the first lot will have a couple of levels more):

Tika Waylan
5th level human fighter (+ 3rd level thief)
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 14
HP 30

Gilthanas
5th level fighter/4th level elf magic user
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 13
HP 26

Laurana (NPC only until later)
4th level fighter
Str 13, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 16
HP 28

The important thing to remember is that many stats meant very little unless lower than about 8, or higher than 14. Cha was an exception - it mattered from 13 up, and Int/Wis never really mattered except to spellcasters. Also, having exceptional strength made a huge difference for fighters with it, so Caramon and Riverwind are much stronger than the others.

Are draconians more skilled than a normal professional soldier? Tougher, sure, but more skilled? I don't buy that at all.

Sort of - compared to the default AD&D1 level-0 guy, they are. However, the DL adventures tended to give humans found out and about 1-2HD, making Baaz mostly just better equipped and organised. Kapak and up, OTOH, were definitely both tougher and more skilled than normal human soldiers (and all draconians had decent armour).