Jet Spell cost question

[MIB.6361]

THIS HAS BEEN RESOLVED. PLEASE SEE MY POST BELOW.

I searched to see if this had been discussed before, but "jet" is too common and I didn't find anything.

Magic combat is already costly and less efficient than mundane combat, but it seems like jet spells penalize the wizard unduly.

For example:
Turn 1: Cast Flame Jet - Spend 2 FP
Turn 2: Maintain Flame Jet - Spend 2 FP
Turn 2: Attack with Flame Jet.

So before you can USE the jet spell, you have to pay for it twice? Am I missing something?

[JaJacob]

I don't use vanilla magic that often, but if my memory serves right it is meant that you attack as you would with regular missile spell. The choice to maintain it skips the roll you would have to take to recast it. So you just pay the cost again without any roll

Edit for clarity:

Turn 1 cast jet
Turn 2 attack
Turn 3 maintain jet for same cost (as a free action), so you can chose to attack again.

The way I imagine it is basically a short beam you can keep going as long as you jeep pumping energy into it.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by MIB.6361

For example:
Turn 1: Cast Flame Jet - Spend 2 FP
Turn 2: Maintain Flame Jet - Spend 2 FP
Turn 2: Attack with Flame Jet.

So before you can USE the jet spell, you have to pay for it twice? Am I missing something?

Yes, I think you're misreading how casting a jet spell generally goes. Jets are Regular spells. That means, you cast it, and you can immediately attack with it. There's no business of "Turn 1, cast and put in energy, Turn 2, either throw it or charge it further" the way there is with Missile spells. So jet spells are actually faster to cast than missiles, with comparable prices damage-wise. Their drawbacks are that a) they're expensive to maintain and hold "at the ready", and b) they're more limited in range than missiles.

[MIB.6361]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yes, I think you're misreading how casting a jet spell generally goes. Jets are Regular spells. That means, you cast it, and you can immediately attack with it. There's no business of "Turn 1, cast and put in energy, Turn 2, either throw it or charge it further" the way there is with Missile spells. So jet spells are actually faster to cast than missiles, with comparable prices damage-wise. Their drawbacks are that a) they're expensive to maintain and hold "at the ready", and b) they're more limited in range than missiles.

The way you describe it definitely works better than how I'm reading it.

However, Regular spells, unless otherwise specified, take 1 second to cast. That's your entire turn spend concentrating to make it happen. During that 1 second you can't also attack. Under time to cast it specifically says "your turn ends as soon as you roll the dice" in relation to casting time.

Originally Posted by JaJacob

Edit for clarity:
Turn 1 cast jet
Turn 2 attack
Turn 3 maintain jet for same cost (as a free action), so you can chose to attack again.

Doing it this way means you get the spell for free on turn 2. That's something I've considered doing but it isn't consistent with how the rest of magic and maintenance cost works.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yes, I think you're misreading how casting a jet spell generally goes. Jets are Regular spells. That means, you cast it, and you can immediately attack with it. There's no business of "Turn 1, cast and put in energy, Turn 2, either throw it or charge it further" the way there is with Missile spells. So jet spells are actually faster to cast than missiles, with comparable prices damage-wise. Their drawbacks are that a) they're expensive to maintain and hold "at the ready", and b) they're more limited in range than missiles.

We've always interpreted it like this too.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Edges

We've always interpreted it like this too.

While I still think it's more balanced to let Jets attack on the same turn they're cast (otherwise, their price compared to missile spells is pretty poor), after re-reading the rules, I do think malloyd's interpretation is the correct one. Personally, though, I think I'll houserule it so that Jet spells, as a special case, effectively allow attacking as part of the spellcasting process. That would technically give them two turns of attacks (one on the first turn when the spell is cast, and another next turn) before the maintenance cost comes due, but I think that's actually reasonable given their limited range.

[sir_pudding]

The issue you would have with this is you'll need to specify which is now a Free Action: Concentrate or Attack? Can you take other manuevers on that turn besides Attack?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The issue you would have with this is you'll need to specify which is now a Free Action: Concentrate or Attack? Can you take other manuevers on that turn besides Attack?

I would simply declare that in the specific case of the Jet spells, the Concentrate maneuver allows an attack as part of it. There isn't a tremendous amount of precedent for this, I'll admit, but I don't think it's unreasonable, either.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by MIB.6361

For example:
Turn 1: Cast Flame Jet - Spend 2 FP
Turn 2: Maintain Flame Jet - Spend 2 FP
Turn 2: Attack with Flame Jet.

So before you can USE the jet spell, you have to pay for it twice? Am I missing something?

There is some confusion in wording because spells changed from taking effect at the beginning of the turn after you cast it (3e) to the end of the turn you cast it (4e). But in either case no, you cast it, pay the cost, and then get to use it before the maintenance cost comes due, it's just in 3e it comes due the start of your turn, and 4e at the end. So 3e:

Turn 1, Cast spell, turn ends
Turn 2, Roll for spell skill, Pay 2 FP, jet forms, attack, turn ends.
Turn 3, Pay 2 FP to keep the spell going if you want....

4e:
Turn 1: Cast spell, Roll for spell skill, Spend 2 FP, jet forms, turn ends.
Turn 2: Attack something, pay 2 FP to keep the spell going if you want, turn ends.

Same sequence, differs only in where you insert the two "turn ends" dividers.

I suppose if you could parry with the jet and only paid the cost for 1 turn, the interval you could do that would have shifted from after your 2nd turn to after your first turn going from 3e to 4e (i.e. from after you could attack to before), but most jets can't parry anyway.

[Gnomasz]

I'm with malloyd here: you cast the spell (Concentrate) and pay for it, then Attack with it (or All-Out-Attack, or Move-and-Attack) on turn 2 and choose if you want to maintain it for turn 3.