Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

It's equipment making the difference when you're claiming high TL means ST isn't important.

Not really. Deprived of your vibroknife that ST30 has the same penetration as ST10 on that battlesuit -> none. Given gear, ST10 can be arguably as effective for 200 less points that can be spent on other things.

By the way, TL8 gear is lighter and more effective than TL5-6 gear, and yet modern light infantry carries more weight than TL5-6 light infantry did (and they carried more than TL2-3 light infantry did).

Isn't that the paradigm you accused me of projecting? Besides, you're not making an apples and apples comparison. List what each TL has in their pack and you'll see that higher TLs get more utility for the same weight even against other soldiers.

Most importantly, what the average soldier carries doesn't reflect what PCs would be likely to carry. Most of the Star Trek (say ToS) crew seems to go on "away" missions with little more than a phone, t-shirt, and pistol. Shadowrunners tend to outfit for urban adventuring. Military specialists will choose based on the op.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One of the idiocies associated with the modern military is loading 100-150 lbs on every soldier. Not only does it reduce combat effectiveness, it also causes long term disability by damaging the back and the legs. You would think that the military had not heard of mules...

Mules require quite a bit of food in barren areas, and water. They are not reliably stealthy, and will refuse to work if they think they've done enough for the day (sensible creatures, really). They are not suitable for many situations that you want light infantry for.

That said, yes, it's dumb. More than about 40 pounds (light encumbrance in GURPS terms, interestingly) carried over the long term tends to cause long-term back and leg joint damage.

As an aside, the British found in the Falklands War that soldiers injured whilst carrying less than about 7kg (roughly 20 pounds, no encumbrance for normal folk in GURPS) were significantly more likely to survive and had better recovery outcomes. Maybe encumbrance levels should be applied to HT checks for shock, bleeding and recovery.

Compare that to a character in a Commando Battlesuit. They might have to carry twice as much, but 300 lbs is nothing to ST 25 (not even exceeding Medium Encumbrance). A force that used Commando Battlesuits would pity any force that did not, though the feeling would be brief due to the horrific lethality of their concentrated fire.

Oh, absolutely. But note that strong guys in Commando Suits can carry even more (ST30's basic load is 44% greater than ST25's). Whether one runs out of useful stuff to carry before this matters is a question I can't be bothered answering right now (because I don't feel like going through UT+HT and making a list of junk armies will decide power armour troopers must carry), though if nothing else it means more ammo for the heavy weapons. Oh, and ST27 (so commando suit plus ST12 user) lets you use semi-portable Plasma guns without penalty (of course they're superscience, so may not be available).

That brings up that ST12 break-point that has been mentioned several times in this thread. People seem to be finding that ST is competitive up to around ST12, and then loses value. The question therefore is whether it's worth the bother of having ST change cost after ST12 or ST13. I tend to say 'No', others may differ.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That brings up that ST12 break-point that has been mentioned several times in this thread. People seem to be finding that ST is competitive up to around ST12, and then loses value. The question therefore is whether it's worth the bother of having ST change cost after ST12 or ST13. I tend to say 'No', others may differ.

At some point, the price should begin decreasing. There's never a time when going from ST 17,008 to 17,009 is worth as much as going from 10 to 11.

I think it's best to think of ST as the ability to achieve certain goals rather than as a set number.

What goals does ST 17,009 allow you to achieve that ST 17,0008 doesn't? None. That's they they're worth the same amount.

What goals does ST 18 allow you to achieve that ST 12 doesn't? How much is being able to accomplish that goal worth? What are some other traits that give a similar increase in character ability?

The difference between 12 and 18 is a real one, even in a science-fiction game, but I don't think it's worth more than Mind Control or six levels of a 10/level Talent, or almost anything else that someone might reasonably take. It's certainly not as valuable as sixty points put into one of the more powerful skills.

The difference between ST 12 and ST 18 is primarily in that you can carry more combat equipment. The HP isn't worth very much (anything that touches you will turn you to paste regardless), and Striking ST is a joke in a sci-fi game.

Carrying more combat equipment isn't worth the difference between skill 6 and skill 25.

Skills face the same diminishing returns as ST, in theory, but probably not so much in practice.. An additional level of a combat skill will usually justify its price. If someone allows you to buy skill 40 in your combat skill, you'll probably be able to come up with situations where that matters. A darkness penalty here, a shock penalty there, a target a few miles away... these things add up.

Imagine spending those sixty points on Wealth instead. Or Rank. Or who knows what all else.

It feels like there's a real clear difference between here and in a low-tech game where the additional Striking ST and HP are a big deal. The difference between ST 12 and ST 18 is a huge difference for Conan.

Just imagine if the monster of the week brings an infection on board the Enterprise and Spock, in his weakened state, is reduced from ST 18 to ST 12. He... doesn't seem that much worse off. This is very unlikely to impact his ability to accomplish his goals. Conan so weakened, on the other hand, is now faced with serious challenges where before he could have easily overcome his adversaries.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by naloth

No, I'm suggesting that as TL goes up, things tend to get both lighter and more effective, even if you aren't playing with battle suits, vehicles, drones, and other "aids" that can carry weapons for you.

Aside from Plasma, most weapons either require ST10 or less or are intended to be mounted on something. At TL10, they have fairly good penetration and fairly large ammo capacities. Armor is still a good idea, but depending on the weapons you might be better off dodging or with (tech based) camouflage.

Ok, The Nanosuit and either a Clamshell or Trauma plates, and some kind of sealed helmet at TL10. You know what you're looking at? Torso and Vitals DR 70-90, Skull, Eyes, Face DR 57, vs bullets. Torso/Vitals DR 60-75, Skull/Eyes/Face DR 42. Handheld lasers need to target chinks in armor to penetrate and kill or boost, ETC needs to use APEP(which is expensive, with a magazine typically costing as much or more than the weapon), and E-Mags need to boost their power.

Also, Tech based camo? It has a weight. You're gonna pay about 10lbs of weight to use Chameleon, Radar Stealth and IR Cloaking, which ST lets you eat up. You gonna run around in a stealth suit weighing 5lbs, with no helmet, with just a laser rifle and a few extra C cells? Hey, knock knock, guess who? It's 25mm thermobaric! Dodge that.

Other gear? In the future, you'll probably have vehicles (drones or mules) that can travel to carry the bulk of your non-fighting gear.

I didn't say non fighting gear. Mortar boxes that can be fired remotely, heavy weapons that can be set up with remote firing capabilities, managed by AIs, extra energy packs and extra ammo. And vehicles and mules can't carry your armor for you.

Let's look at the points side of that:
ST15 BL45. Lt enc: 90 lbs, more HP, striking Dmg boost, -1 dodge
ST11 DX11 HT 12. Med Enc: 72 lbs, +1 skill, +2 to HT rolls. +1 speed, -1 dodge

Almost all the experienced players go with option 2: diversify out of ST. Buy up HT if you need speed and DX if you need accuracy. Throw a point or two in ST for enc/HP.

I'm not saying that ST 15 and nothing else is a good build. Almost without fail, it's better to get most of your attributes into the 11-12 range before you start specializing in one particular one.
Also, it's only +.75 speed( Speed is DX + ST/4. You don't round up).

Honestly, if you're going for "best build" DX 12 and HT 12 are pretty much the first things you need. Then you start spending elsewhere.

Why? Because while ST sounds cool when you can load up with gear or fight in broom closets, that's just not how most games play out. You'll often be fighting at a range, sometimes deprived of your gear (where option 2 gives you more speed/dodge to run or fight). There are just better buys than ST for its cost.

My ultra tech games almost all tend towards a military setting, where gear is usually available for missions, and where in between, you get to rely on your natural abilities. But ST is extremely useful.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

The difference between ST 12 and ST 18 is primarily in that you can carry more combat equipment. The HP isn't worth very much (anything that touches you will turn you to paste regardless), and Striking ST is a joke in a sci-fi game.

Firstly, if you look at the stuff in UT, rifles generally do about 6d damage regardless of TL, and just penetrate better at higher TLs. Thus more HP makes quite a difference to whether hits partly stopped by armour cripple, and whether hits not really stopped by armour kill.

As for striking ST - depends on the setting. TL10, no force weapons, but otherwise good melee weapons makes striking ST quite useful. Probably not enough to make buying ST just for the melee damage a good idea, but enough to make it fairly useful. Add in force screens that stop energy and fast projectiles (Dune-style), and suddenly ST looks really rather nice.

Carrying more combat equipment isn't worth the difference between skill 6 and skill 25.

Until you find you really need that climbing kit and you don't have it. Or you run out of ammo, or...

Imagine spending those sixty points on Wealth instead. Or Rank. Or who knows what all else.

And yet in many games I don't see that happen, or rather I don't see everyone dumping ST. Now, in TL9+ games it's not usually the highest stat, and it's usually raised above ST12 or ST14 after DX and IQ have been pushed up, but it goes up. In my current game the long-time PCs that have gone from 150 or 200 points to 1000+ points have DX18 and ST18+, and not DX20 and ST14. Apparently the players find it worthwhile to bump ST up at about the same rate as DX. Oh, and they've bought their HP up to STx1.3 as well.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Rupert

if you look at the stuff in UT, rifles generally do about 6d damage regardless of TL, and just penetrate better at higher TLs

Is that because they're only presenting the personal-scale weapons fit for humans? I would expect robots to carry something bigger. It sounds like modern military weapons are better than those.

The warheads in Ultra-Tech would make HP irrelevant, and there are robots specialized in their use. Even the 25mm shaped charge looks like it would splat anything organic. Even the 40mm ones blow up everything. I don't know why anyone would spend huge amounts on expensive battlesuits when they could buy cheap robots equipped with cheap warheads.

If combat is about warbots fighting people in battlesuits, then I would expect the medium or larger sized warheads to replace conventional rifles in combat. I wouldn't bother looking at what the rifles can do, because those aren't the weapons that are going to be used.

You can set up scenarios that work the way you're describing, and I suspect that's what's going on, because your experiences have been very different from mine.

And yet in many games I don't see that happen, or rather I don't see everyone dumping ST.

Are you using superscience or other weirdness that changes the relative usefulness of the traits? Magic force screens can do that.

In my current game the long-time PCs that have gone from 150 or 200 points to 1000+ points have DX18 and ST18+, and not DX20 and ST14. Apparently the players find it worthwhile to bump ST up at about the same rate as DX. Oh, and they've bought their HP up to STx1.3 as well.

The incentives and trade-offs players face both in adding points over time and in building gods (1000+ points is a lot of points) make this radically different than a normal character creation situation.

Once you get into the many hundreds of points, you start to run into the diminishing returns of all the traits. You'll have already purchased all the underpriced traits, and then all of the next most valuable traits, and so on until you don't have all that much left to consider. Going from skill 38 to 40 with your weapon skill is just about as useless as going from ST 17 to 18 at that point. All the purchases at that point are marginal; the traits in the game aren't priced in such a way that a point gets you a consistent amount of awesome. Once you buy all the low-hanging fruit, you get very low returns on additional points spent.

And I'm sure there are ways to set things up where ST is useful. The kinds of conflicts the players get into, the available technologies, and various other factors will determine the relative usefulness of the traits. But you have to make things very weird for the difference in utility in going from ST 12 to ST 18 to be the same in a high TL world as it is in a low TL one.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

The warheads in Ultra-Tech would make HP irrelevant, and there are robots specialized in their use. Even the 25mm shaped charge looks like it would splat anything organic. Even the 40mm ones blow up everything. I don't know why anyone would spend huge amounts on expensive battlesuits when they could buy cheap robots equipped with cheap warheads.

The 25mm does 63 Damage, with AD(10). A Heavy battlesuit soaks 30 of that damage. Add Reactive Armor Paste, and it eats 50 of it. That's 13 damage penetrating. Maybe you're dealing with a ST15 dude, who doesn't get knocked out by that. Or maybe you have a ST 12 dude who has to take consciousness checks, but you have trauma systems that can dump stimulants into people and make them unable to fall unconscious.

Even up against a lightweight build, you're looking at only doing 30 damage or so. And that's where HP is important. A Dude with DR75 on his torso and RAP has DR 27 vs the warhead. That's 36 injury afterwards. For a ST10-ST12, that's 2 death checks at -1 and -2. For ST15, that's no death checks. Hardly irrelevant. And 25mm isn't lightweight ammo. It runs between .9 and .22 lbs per round.

And you have to hit. An ACC 5 weapon at TL 10 can add up to +10 to hit(+8 for a 25mm, +4 for a 40mm), and if it has a high rate of fire, it can add that as well. You probably can't penetrate the torso and head with those weapons, but you can hit the limbs. Cripple a limb, and you can then shoot the disabled person with warheads.

[AlexanderHowl]

You do not need ST for more HP. A character with ST 12 can purchase HP 15 without special perks for 6 CP and, if they are martial artists, they can purchase a perk that allows them to have HP 24 for 24 CP. In the former case, the character saves 24 CP over a character who purchases ST 15. In the latter case, the character saves 96 CP over a character who purchase ST 24.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Is that because they're only presenting the personal-scale weapons fit for humans? I would expect robots to carry something bigger. It sounds like modern military weapons are better than those.

not against armour, they're not.

The warheads in Ultra-Tech would make HP irrelevant, and there are robots specialized in their use. Even the 25mm shaped charge looks like it would splat anything organic. Even the 40mm ones blow up everything. I don't know why anyone would spend huge amounts on expensive battlesuits when they could buy cheap robots equipped with cheap warheads.

If combat is about warbots fighting people in battlesuits, then I would expect the medium or larger sized warheads to replace conventional rifles in combat. I wouldn't bother looking at what the rifles can do, because those aren't the weapons that are going to be used.

Most combat in my games is not military vs military, so Shaped charges and HEMP aren't common, and hit points are useful. Being able to carry lots is useful when you are throwing round HEMP warheads - ammo gets heavy quickly when you're using 40mm+ warheads.

And I'm sure there are ways to set things up where ST is useful. The kinds of conflicts the players get into, the available technologies, and various other factors will determine the relative usefulness of the traits. But you have to make things very weird for the difference in utility in going from ST 12 to ST 18 to be the same in a high TL world as it is in a low TL one.

It doesn't have to be the same as in order for ST to not be over-priced, especially as ST is arguably under-priced at low TLs.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You do not need ST for more HP. A character with ST 12 can purchase HP 15 without special perks for 6 CP and, if they are martial artists, they can purchase a perk that allows them to have HP 24 for 24 CP. In the former case, the character saves 24 CP over a character who purchases ST 15. In the latter case, the character saves 96 CP over a character who purchase ST 24.

Given that getting that perk requires a special exercise regime, and the only style in Martial Arts that grants it is Sumo Wrestling, your ST12, HP24 dude is going to be pretty big...