06-11-2007, 02:51 AM | #51 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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06-11-2007, 03:09 AM | #52 | |
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(If you have to ask . . .) Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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What makes you think that it isn't mundane? Where is your example that would indicate that it is a Cosmic enhancement? |
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06-11-2007, 03:31 AM | #53 | |||||
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(If you have to ask . . .) Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
Here are a few examples of where they mention Cosmic in the Advantage:
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However, I think this really is the kicker: Quote:
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06-11-2007, 06:11 AM | #54 | ||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Orange County, VA
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
I see a lot of referencing to the cosmic power set from the powers book. What Mark Skarr seems to be overlooking is that all of his arguments referencing that particular book deal with creating power sets (and/or power tiers) and using power modifiers, which while are enhancements and limitations are not the same as the wild advantage. Power modifiers and tiers are an optional rule set, one which can be used to create the "irrestable attack". Sorry Mark, but your argument focuses on the wording from the Powers book, which are optional rules, where as the opposition is focusing on the basic books (so in effect, we are both correct depending on if you are using the optional rules as outlined in Powers). For the sake of discussion, I will focus on the Basic set rules as much as possible, since the threadjacking is about whether or not Hardened can interact with Cosmic Irrestable Attack as outlined in the Basic set.
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1. The PM from Kromm is not being misinterpereted, but since it doesn't support your argument you wish to claim it is. 2. Kromm was not in error, unless he decides something different and then indicates so, but you'd like him to be in errror so you can support your argument. 3. "Cosmic" powers from the Powers book are either power sets or power tiers and are thus optional rules which make some modifications. Powers (the book) also discusses the difference between power modifiers and wild advantages. The advantages in the Basic books are "wild" advantages and thus can superceed any power created using the rules from Powers (the book) that you keep presented. |
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06-11-2007, 09:09 AM | #55 | |
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Fine Line Between Black and White
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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06-11-2007, 09:24 AM | #56 |
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
Time to switch sides for a while... :)
someone quoted from powers p.101, about cosmic, but I thought I'd bring the last paragraph there into the debate, since it was overlooked.. Powers p.101: "Cosmic vs. Cosmic: When Cosmic abilities conflict, handle it as if neither side has cosmic. For instance, DR with Cosmic subtracts from "irresistable attacks with Cosmic." This last sentence seems to indicate that DR without cosmic does not.. Last edited by Obbas; 06-11-2007 at 09:47 AM. Reason: bad spelling |
06-11-2007, 09:24 AM | #57 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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Cosmic:Irresistible Force shouldn't be affected as it's not an Armor Divisor. Armor divisors are separately noted and documented, and Hardened only works on armor divisors. Kromm treats Cosmic:IF as an Armor Divisor, but that's something that isn't in the text of the basic book. "Ignores DR" isn't an armor divisor unless you want this ruling to apply to all the other penetration modifiers that also ignore DR (incomplete list above). I also consider it a bad idea. Knowing how armor divisors were using in 3rd edition (high tech equipment, force fields), it's going to imply that spiritual, ghostly, and otherwise DR ignoring attacks ('I teleport something inside you doing 3d impaling') just cannot be built. As a GM, it's also invalidated a social contract that I use for Cosmic:IR attacks: low damage because you don't have to worry about 'normal' DR. Wolverine's claws, for example, might 'cut through anything' effectively giving them Cosmic:IR and a relatively low damage amount (3dish?). If Hardened DR is going to work there could be some relatively low DR things that he cannot cut through at all. Quote:
Hardened works on armor divisors only, not any enhancement that has the text 'ignores DR' in the description. 'Ignores DR' is a possible armor divisor that doesn't appear to be priced in the basic book. Look under Armor Divisor and see for yourself. Yep, it circumvents DR alright. Of course it doesn't say that it circumvents Hardened DR, just that it circumvents DR. So it can "ignores DR" on unmodified DR all it wants. Of course, Hardened DR will adjust the armor penetration stage by the appropriate levels. Quote:
I suggest a 4th option: Kromm has decided that Cosmic:IF should be an armor divisor even though there's no text describing it as such in the basic book. That's errata, and it disagrees with how things work in Powers, but he's the Line Editor so it's up to him. Last edited by naloth; 06-11-2007 at 09:31 AM. |
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06-11-2007, 10:11 AM | #58 | |||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Orange County, VA
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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Last edited by cccwebs; 06-11-2007 at 10:16 AM. |
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06-11-2007, 10:52 AM | #59 | |
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Calgary, AB... looking for a few more to join us.
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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06-11-2007, 10:56 AM | #60 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.
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Reducing it from "infinite" to "100" doesn't neuter your attack. It means that Sam probably has a DR of 1 versus your attack instead of whatever DR he had. If he wants to have a DR of 2 against it, he'd have to pay 200 points just for the privilege of the Hardened enhancement on his DR 200.
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