Ignoring Armor once and for all.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

I suppose you have a point, there. Okay, forget the kittens. Tell me how to model *GenericDeity*'s thunderbolts that cannot be stopped by any mortal armor. Is there any way that they can be blocked by cosmic DR but not ceramic armor or the like?

Sure. 'Innate Attack, 1,000d burning'. That will go through ceramic armor like it wasn't there. Any finite character is by definition subject to finite countermeasures.

[Obbas]

Just thought I'd add to the number crunching club.. :)

The cost for cosmic (Irresistable attack) is +300%
This seems to fit seamlessly into the armor divisor mod, which lists
(3) +100%, (5) +150%, (10) +200%
The steps listed for hardened are 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 100, ignores DR, so if we add the assumption "Armor divisor (100): +250%", we get to the listed +300% for "ignores DR" just by following the progression... ;)

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Sure. 'Innate Attack, 1,000d burning'. That will go through ceramic armor like it wasn't there. Any finite character is by definition subject to finite countermeasures.

Now suppose I want to do it without causing instant death. And there is a countermeasure to cosmic:ignores DR, even if it still ignores hardened- it's called DR with cosmic (+50%).

Originally Posted by Obbas

The steps listed for hardened are 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 100, ignores DR, so if we add the assumption "Armor divisor (100): +250%", we get to the listed +300% for "ignores DR" just by following the progression... ;)

Well, that seems a fairly valid point. However, as I have noted above, Cosmic: Ignores DR has a counter, one that is much cheaper than Hardened:Prevents 'Ignores DR' (+50% vs. +120%).

[Obbas]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Well, that seems a fairly valid point. However, as I have noted above, Cosmic: Ignores DR has a counter, one that is much cheaper than Hardened:Prevents 'Ignores DR' (+50% vs. +120%).

Depends how you interpret that +50% enchantment... "provides it's usual benefit", which against "armor divisor: infinity" is none at all... :)

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Obbas

Depends how you interpret that +50% enchantment... "provides it's usual benefit", which against "armor divisor: infinity" is none at all... :)

But it lets the defense defend as if the attack did not have cosmic! Without cosmic, no armor divisor:infinity. Am I missing something?

[Obbas]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

But it lets the defense defend as if the attack did not have cosmic! Without cosmic, no armor divisor:infinity. Am I missing something?

No, not realy. Only that you must always moderate literal rules interpretations with a degree of flexibility. If there is a specific modifier for something, you should not use cosmic instead. Cosmic is a "catch all" backup...
Also it does not defend as though the attack does not have cosmic, it merely allows it's ususal benefit as I stated above. Semantics, I know, but relevant in this case..

More to the point, that +50% cosmic defence will ONLY defend against the cosmic armor divisor, not the other kinds, so it really isn't that useful..

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Now suppose I want to do it without causing instant death. And there is a countermeasure to cosmic:ignores DR, even if it still ignores hardened- it's called DR with cosmic (+50%).

Take a limitation that it doesn't cause instant death. However, there's nothing that says that mundane armor can't have Cosmic (I routinely give large objects irreducible DR; a 1d6 Cosmic attack is still only 1d6, and something that resists damage because small attacks are just too small to be relevant won't care about 1d6).

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Well, that seems a fairly valid point. However, as I have noted above, Cosmic: Ignores DR has a counter, one that is much cheaper than Hardened:Prevents 'Ignores DR' (+50% vs. +120%).

There is no finite cost 'Immune to Cosmic attacks' -- they can still overwhelm with raw damage.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Obbas

If there is a specific modifier for something, you should not use cosmic instead.
Also it does not defend as though the attack does not have cosmic, it merely allows it's ususal benefit as I stated above. Semantics, I know, but relevant in this case..

So what is the specific modifier I want here?

And what would DR with cosmic defend against that normal DR wouldn't? If it doesn't cancel out the 'cosmicness' of an attack, what does it do?

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Well, that seems a fairly valid point. However, as I have noted above, Cosmic: Ignores DR has a counter, one that is much cheaper than Hardened:Prevents 'Ignores DR' (+50% vs. +120%).

Yes, Cosmic Irresistable Attack has a counter, two of them actually. Cosmic Irresistable Attack, when applied to an innate attack which is normally "resisted" by Damage Resistance specifically means "ignores DR". This is from the book (Characters p. 103) and hasn't been changed in any supplement, errata, or the F.A.Q. Cosmic Defense or countermeasure specifically allows a defensive trait to work against an offensive ability modified by the Cosmic enhancement. Hardened specifically reduces the armor penetration category by one stage per level (with the levels being in order: "Ignores DR", 100, 10, 5, 3, 2, 1, per Characters p. 47). One counter is cheaper to reduce the stage from "Ignores DR" to 1, but it only works on attacks modified by the Cosmic enhancement. The other counter is much more expensive to reduce the stage from "Ignores DR" to 1, but it works on the Cosmic enhancement as well as the Armor Divisor enhancement. We can keep going round and round, but in the end, the RAW allow for two possible methods to modify Damage Resistance to negate or partially mitigate the "ignores DR" effect of Cosmic Irresistable Attack. If you don't agree with the RAW, do like everyone else who doesn't agree does and house rule it.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Yeah, it's kinda funny how the rules are written to prevent someone from creating that instant-unresistable killer attack ;) (Even Magic's Teleport Other spell doesn't let the mage "pop" an object into another solid object)

But, not really. It's emulated in many non-deific stories as well.

Originally Posted by ravenfish

If it were modeled as an Innate Attack (and I don't see how else to model a damaging attack), Cosmic DR would protect against it. Call it 'warding the body against teleportation', or whatever. More to the point, hardened armor would also protect against it.

I would love an explanation of how bi-phased carbide armor would protect against an attack that teleports someing inside the target, bypassing the BPC.

Originally Posted by Anthony

There is no way to get 'ignores DR' (or /100) other than the Cosmic (Irresistable attack) enhancement. Therefore, Hardened must be referring to Cosmic (Irresistable Attack).

Then it needs to specifically state that because, Characters page 33 specifically mentions you need cosmic to defeat cosmic.
And, in Ultra-Tech we have Graviton Beamers that have a damage divisor of infinity, but no indication that they are "cosmic" attacks. Ditto disintegrators and ghost p-weapons. So, it seems to me that Hardened is designed to go against "normal" armor divisors, and as Characters pg 33 says if you want to defend against a Cosmic attack, you have to have Cosmic defense.

Let me re-itterate:

Originally Posted by Characters p. 33

Cosmic: Abilities that emanate from the universe itself or otherwise defy explanation. This is reserved for gods, powerful spirits, supers, etc. If your ability produces effects that only other cosmic powers can counteract this is an enhancement; see Cosmic (p. 103)
Emphasis from book

Originally Posted by Powers p. 21

Cosmic powers add +50% to their power modifier. This lets their abilities ignore the things that normally block, shut down, or nullify wild versions of those traits, unless those countermeasures are themselves cosmic; e.g., only a cosmic barrier can block cosmic Insubstantiality and only cosmic vision can penetrate cosmic Invisibility.

I see nowhere in the description of Hardened (p. 47) that it is a Cosmic enhancement.