Ignoring Armor once and for all.

[Kaldrin]

My problem would come from the math behind where the next step down from infinity resides if you want to apply the quote from Kromm.

Hey, I have 20 levels of hardened on my 100 DR... great, 100 divided by (what's the proper 20 step downs from infinity, 60 million? 100 trillion?)...

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I take serious offense that you would even suggest that I'd "fake" a post from Kromm. If you have any doubts as to the validity of the indicated post, please send a PM to Kromm and ask him yourself.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

First off, I have absolutely no reason to believe that cccwebs is lying or has lied in the past, and am very surprised to hear you accuse him of it out of the blue like this. (And there is no way that "I doubt the veracity of your statement" does not equate to "I believe you are lying.")

You're both right. I did not mean to call cccwebs a liar. And my original statement was much more "aggressive" than I intended it to be. My original statement was meant to encourage people to measure such statements with their trust in the poster and never to believe such things out of hand. It did not come out as such. My years in security have taught me to never trust anything not from the horses mouth.

cccwebs, I am sorry that I called you a liar and cast aspersions upon your character.

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

My problem would come from the math behind where the next step down from infinity resides if you want to apply the quote from Kromm.

Hey, I have 20 levels of hardened on my 100 DR... great, 100 divided by (what's the proper 20 step downs from infinity, 60 million? 100 trillion?)...

Actually, that's not a problem as you don't divide the divisor by anything, it's affected as a level. If someone has hardened 1 and you have an armor divisor of infinity, it becomes an armor divisor of 100 because that's the next step down.

Bruno is correct in the primary problem we are addressing. Powers that should not be affected by armor become affected due to a mundane enhancement. If armor is going to defend against a Cosmic enhancement, then it needs a Cosmic enhancement.

Originally Posted by Characters

pg 33.
Cosmic: Abilities that emanate from the universe itself or otherwise defy explanation. This is reserved for gods, powerful spirits, supers, etc. If your ability produces effects that only other cosmic powers can counteract this is an enhancement; see Cosmic (p. 103)
Emphasis from book

That makes it a pretty much open and shut case for Cosmic: Irresistable Attack to defeat hardened armor.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

That makes it a pretty much open and shut case for Cosmic: Irresistable Attack to defeat hardened armor.

I'd agree there. As much as it pains me, I really can't see Kromm's point of view here. The wholepoint of cosmic is that it trumps everything. And of course, there are plenty of ways an attack could be defined that logically need a way to ignore ALL mundane armor (like Bruno's Kittens).

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If I teleport a small animal into your spleen, for 10d impaling damage, the fact that you've got a ceramic composite armor on shouldn't reduce the damage. You've got a small animal in your spleen, it doesn't care about your armor.

In the rules as written, there is no way to create ceramic composite (or biphase carbide, or whatever) armor that DOESN'T protect you from having small animals teleported into your spleen.

Yeah, it's kinda funny how the rules are written to prevent someone from creating that instant-unresistable killer attack ;) (Even Magic's Teleport Other spell doesn't let the mage "pop" an object into another solid object)

If you absolutely have to have a diety power to kill a character then "just do it". Dieties don't necessarily have to follow the rules.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Malediction doesn't work, because having the small animal teleported into your spleen isn't exactly something you can resist by having a good constitution, or mental focus, or whatever. You want something that stops things from being teleported - say a force field or whatever. Which would be Cosmic DR.

Even Cosmic DR wouldn't really protect you from having a small animal teleported into your spleen. A Cosmic Static field would.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Yeah, it's kinda funny how the rules are written to prevent someone from creating that instant-unresistable killer attack ;)

Actually, it could be resisted, both by high HP and Cosmic DR. I fail to see why 'only stopped by cosmic DR' is so much more gamebreaking than 'only stopped by cosmic or hardened DR'.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Even Cosmic DR wouldn't really protect you from having a small animal teleported into your spleen. A Cosmic Static field would.

If it were modeled as an Innate Attack (and I don't see how else to model a damaging attack), Cosmic DR would protect against it. Call it 'warding the body against teleportation', or whatever. More to the point, hardened armor would also protect against it.

[Blood Legend]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

My problem would come from the math behind where the next step down from infinity resides if you want to apply the quote from Kromm.

Hey, I have 20 levels of hardened on my 100 DR... great, 100 divided by (what's the proper 20 step downs from infinity, 60 million? 100 trillion?)...

I thought of this immediately after reading down the first page again.

What is the value of Hardened DR divided infinitely into smaller pieces? A big whopping .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000[ Continue this number infinitly ]1. Kind of moot now.

Maybe that should be a 2...

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

If it were modeled as an Innate Attack (and I don't see how else to model a damaging attack), Cosmic DR would protect against it. Call it 'warding the body against teleportation', or whatever. More to the point, hardened armor would also protect against it.

Actually, it really doesn't "ward against teleportation". Cosmic DR (even hardened DR) would only reduce the amount of injury taken from having that small animal teleported into your spleen. It doesn't actually prevent the teleportation from occuring. It's just as silly to say that Cosmic DR reduces the damage you take from an "internal" source as it is to say that hardened DR does.

Originally Posted by Blood Legend

I thought of this immediately after reading down the first page again.

What is the value of Hardened DR divided infinitely into smaller pieces? A big whopping .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000[ Continue this number infinitly ]1. Kind of moot now.

Maybe that should be a 2...

Except that Hardened doesn't reduce the Armor Divisor by a number, but by a stage, and for GURPS the next stage from "Armor Divisor infinity" (which is "ignores DR") is an Armor Divisor of 100.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

It's just as silly to say that Cosmic DR reduces the damage you take from an "internal" source as it is to say that hardened DR does.

I suppose you have a point, there. Okay, forget the kittens. Tell me how to model *GenericDeity*'s thunderbolts that cannot be stopped by any mortal armor. Is there any way that they can be blocked by cosmic DR but not ceramic armor or the like?

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

I suppose you have a point, there. Okay, forget the kittens. Tell me how to model *GenericDeity*'s thunderbolts that cannot be stopped by any mortal armor. Is there any way that they can be blocked by cosmic DR but not ceramic armor or the like?

Unless a player has the potential to actually be the diety, there's nothing more you need to model. Pick the amount of damage dice. State that no mortal armor is effective but allow Cosmic armor to provide protection. Not everything has to be presented in points, and besides, just house rule it if needed.

If the player is the diety, then come up with a house rule enhancement which can do what you want. One method (house rule alert) could be to modify the Cosmic Irrestable Attack +300% by the basic Cosmic for +50%, which would allow it to ignore the ability of Hardened ( or allow Hardened but disallow Cosmic) to affect it (for a net modifier of +450%). This could be taken a step further to allow an attack which bypasses all armor, even Cosmic armor, for a +600% enhancement. This could be considered an extension of the Optional Rule: Limited Enhancements on p. 111 in Characters.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

I'd agree there. As much as it pains me, I really can't see Kromm's point of view here.

Hardened specifies levels of 'ignores DR, 1/100, 1/10, 1/5, 1/3, 1/2, 1'.

There is no way to get 'ignores DR' (or /100) other than the Cosmic (Irresistable attack) enhancement. Therefore, Hardened must be referring to Cosmic (Irresistable Attack).

As far as it goes, hardened 6 is +120%. Hardened 4 + Cosmic is +130%. Hardened working vs Cosmic seems pretty balanced to me.