Ignoring Armor once and for all.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

I'd say that 'obscene amounts of HP are the way to go there'.

750 HP can be blown through with a measly 214 1d attacks. With current rules I would probably actually just give it 25 HP and damage divisor 30 (Cosmic), which solves the problem adequately.

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by 7thPanzer

I have been following the thread with much attention, as I'm modeling a d20 power that's exactly a truly irresistible attack, having as a nasty side effect the fact it drains the user's life energy. Although I added Requires No Roll to Hit (+100%) and Allows No Active Defense (+300%), I haven't considered Hardened. But now that's fixed. Thanks!

Unless said power does a set fraction of the character's full hit points per use that's not an accurate translation. There IS a defense against such powers in D&D. It's "Hit Points", which represent not just physical toughness but also all the dodging and parrying that GURPS characters do as a separate mechanic.

However, I'd like now to invert the issue: how to build an irresistible defense? I mean, not Hardned Cosmic DR, something that you just "use" and puff, attack failed. (As I said, this is for a d20 power I'm trying to model, and it has as a balancing factor of sorts the fact that every use of these abilities drain the user's life force).

Injury Tolerance and Diffuse.

[DieMunchkin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's very specifically Cosmic that's affected, because Cosmic is really a high level of Armor Divisor.

I can't say I'm thrilled by this. I've always seen Cosmic as different from Armor Divisor - they may have a similar game effect, but they're different.

I have a question, I have a mage in a Supers game who uses Deathtouch (from Magic) as his primary attack. Most of the other PC's have IA's with various levels of Armor Divisor. To compensate, the GM often has bad guys with Hardened defences - no biggy for my character, but since I'm not doing 20d every shot it's not very unbalancing. Does my Deathtouch mage now have to worry about Hardened?

[7thPanzer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

Unless said power does a set fraction of the character's full hit points per use that's not an accurate translation. There IS a defense against such powers in D&D. It's "Hit Points", which represent not just physical toughness but also all the dodging and parrying that GURPS characters do as a separate mechanic.

I'm not sure if I understood you, sorry. Maybe because I'm not a native English speaker. Let me try to clarify: the power I'm trying to model allows the user to automatically do maximum damage without chance for defense (no active defense and ignores DR).

The character in question uses a Thrusting Bastard Sword. So, I'm going for the following Innate Attack:

Sublime Impaling Attack (imp, Affects Insubstantial +20%; Cosmic: Irresistible Attack, No Die Roll Required, No Active Defense Allowed +650%; Variable +5%; Meele Attack, Range 1, -25%; Centelha Divina +25%).
As an Alternative Attack:
Sublime Cutting Attack (cut, Affects Insubstantial +20%; Cosmic: Irresistible Attack, No Die Roll Required, No Active1 Defense Allowed +650%; Variable +5%; Meele Attack, Range 1 or 2, -20%; Centelha Divina +25%).

Centelha Divina is the Power Modifier, which includes Cosmic, +50%.

Now that I think about it, maybe I'm missing the ST-Based Melee Attack modifier.

Now about the Sublime Defense:

Originally Posted by David Johnston

Injury Tolerance and Diffuse.

I was considering Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) at the higher level. Why Diffuse?

BTW, I think this is now completely off-topic. Should I create a new topic?

[SCHIFTY]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Actually, it really doesn't "ward against teleportation". Cosmic DR (even hardened DR) would only reduce the amount of injury taken from having that small animal teleported into your spleen. It doesn't actually prevent the teleportation from occuring. It's just as silly to say that Cosmic DR reduces the damage you take from an "internal" source as it is to say that hardened DR does.


Except that Hardened doesn't reduce the Armor Divisor by a number, but by a stage, and for GURPS the next stage from "Armor Divisor infinity" (which is "ignores DR") is an Armor Divisor of 100.

Isn't an Armor Divisor of 100, for all intents and purposes, still ignores armor? Since I can't recall a character with 100 DR?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, the favored method is Malediction. Yes, it means you get a resistance roll, but game systems are generally allergic to powers which don't offer a defense.

Umm it still has a defense, there is still the Attack roll/Actitive defense portion of the attack.

which is why Mal is not always the appropare response here, be you can't miss with a Mal.

[Mgellis]

I think the idea is that, in GURPS, there isn't supposed to be an attack that simply cannot ever be resisted--the GM should always be able to have a truly serious badass villain who can shrug off at least part of even the most brutal attacks.

Of course, it's usually a moot point.

Let's say a typical lightning strike is 6d burning. And a bolt thrown by Zeus might be 8d burning (Cosmic, Irresistible, +300%) [160].

Now, even if you had TWO levels of hardened on your DR 50 armor [350], you'll only have DR 5 vs. 8d burning. Oh, yeah, that's a LOAD of help. You having marshmellows with that campfire?

Now, the real issue is that some attacks should get around armor no matter how well it is hardened, etc. Rats teleported into your spleen or something similar. It isn't going through the armor; somehow, it is just going around it. For that, I would use Malediction. Yes, it can be resisted, but I do not believe Hardened affects it at all.

Mark

[roguebfl]

Also not IA (Cosmic +300%) was always stopped by DR (Cosmic +50%)

Sense the cam of the first time I'm going to continue my house rule of "Hardened (ignore DR) does not exist. the situation with Sense based, and Resportory Agent, just furthers my point.

While I'm already stingy with extreme justification needed to get cosmic, on anything, I counter once they have it then some as mundane as hardened should not effect it.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

I think the idea is that, in GURPS, there isn't supposed to be an attack that simply cannot ever be resisted--the GM should always be able to have a truly serious badass villain who can shrug off at least part of even the most brutal attacks.

And there is. There always is. +50% Cosmic on DR. +50% Cosmic on Injury Tolerance. There are plenty of ways to do it.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

Now, the real issue is that some attacks should get around armor no matter how well it is hardened, etc. Rats teleported into your spleen or something similar. It isn't going through the armor; somehow, it is just going around it. For that, I would use Malediction. Yes, it can be resisted, but I do not believe Hardened affects it at all.

No, Hardened does not affect it at all, we had that discussion a few pages back.
And the issue comes in that sometimes the attack simply needs to roll to hit and then do damage. If it hits there is nothing that the opponent can do to deflect the damage.

Basically, the issue is that Cosmic: Irresistible Attack is false advertising, it's just Armor Divisor 6. There is nothing Cosmic about it. It allows a mundane (mundane=non-Cosmic) enhancement to defeat it, thereby negating the fact that it is Cosmic.
The other, more amusing, way to look at it would be that yes, Hardened does reduce the value from "Ignores DR" to DR unopposed or somewhere in-between, but since that DR isn't Cosmic, the Cosmic: Irresistable Attack still ignores it . . ..

And Kromm stated (as Bruno and I were having fun) that Malediction and Sense-Based weren't meant to interact with Hardened, however, there is no printed difference between the way the Sense-Based and Cosmic: Irresistible Attack are explained. Yet, we are to magically know that while one Ignores DR by being an Armor Divisor, the other is not.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Malediction and Sense-Based aren't meant to interact with Hardened at all. It's very specifically Cosmic that's affected, because Cosmic is really a high level of Armor Divisor. Malediction and Sense-Based aren't high levels of Armor Divisor -- they're something else.

How were we to know? I don't see anything in the Characters book that says C:IA was an Armor Divisor. They both say they Ignore DR, which is a level noted in Hardened. If "Ignore DR" is an armor divisor level then both Sense-Based and Respiritory are affected by hardened because that is what they do, they "ignore DR." If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

I KNOW it's wrong, but if it's wrong here, why isn't it wrong the other way? The same rule can't be wrong in one place and right in another. That's contradiction and it makes the game dang-near impossible to explain. Like Fizbin.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Basically, the issue is that Cosmic: Irresistible Attack is false advertising, it's just Armor Divisor 6. There is nothing Cosmic about it.

That's a generically true statement; 'Cosmic' is misnamed. It just means 'This power ignores one of the standard limitations of this power'.