Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-17-2020, 08:37 AM   #1
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Lots of styles have Spear, Staff and this perk, which allows you to switch skills used to wield a weapon, and it's pretty clear about it being so you can get the Staff parry bonus with your spear.

But looking at the various Weapon Tables for Staff, and the descriptions of the spear weapon, it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere that you can wield a spear with the Staff skill at all, let alone claim the parry bonus if you do. I always assumed you could (as a Quarterstaff, substituting imp for cr on the thrust line if you used the pointy end) but is that actually in the rules somewhere? And would you get the parry bonus if it was? The pole arms that do actually get duplicate entries on the Staff Weapon Tables (naginata and dueling polearms) don't.
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 08:51 AM   #2
ravenfish
 
Join Date: May 2007
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

In Martial Arts, "Switching Weapon Skills" on p.104 (in the example) says that a character wielding a spear can choose to wield it two-handed with staff and, if doing so, will receive a +2 to parry. So, if you were just assuming, it seems that the writers share your assumptions.

EDIT: I presume the reason that polearms don't get a parry bonus when used with Staff is that the big blade at the end throws off the balance, whereas a spear tip is presumed to be much lighter.
__________________
I predicted GURPS:Dungeon Fantasy several hours before it came out and all I got was this lousy sig.
ravenfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 09:24 AM   #3
zoncxs
 
zoncxs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
...

EDIT: I presume the reason that polearms don't get a parry bonus when used with Staff is that the big blade at the end throws off the balance, whereas a spear tip is presumed to be much lighter.
This. Balance plays a part in that bonus to parry, along with the big parrying surface.

The only difference, in GURPS terms, between a spear and a staff is that one has a striking surface (a thrusting point) and the other does not. Both are long and balanced.

Why staff skill gets +2 to parry and spear skill does not comes from how those two skills are used. You use a spear by pointing it at your opponent, and thrusting at them when they get within range (sometimes you do a tip slash). If their attack passes your tip, then you use circular motions to parry, keeping the tip still pointed at your opponent (or at least in their direction). This does not give you a lot to parry with, and if you mess up you get hit.

Compared to a staff, where you do a lot more swings than thrusts, you can pull back the tip to help parry an attack better, because you can then swing the other end back at your foe.

This is why most styles have what OP mentioned (staff skill, spear skill, form mastery perk). They change between the two skills when necessary. Meyer spear fighting has several parries that take your tip off line to deflect an attack. This is the same type of parry you would use with just a staff.
zoncxs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 10:32 AM   #4
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Of course, you may want both the Spear and Staff skill in such a case. The strange thing though is that it is usually only cost effective to improve one after DX+2. For example, a DX 12 character with Spear-18 has Staff-16 and Polearm-14 at default. They can spend 8 CP to improve Staff to 18 or spend 8 CP to improve Spear to 20, which also improves Staff to 18 and Polearm to 16. They can spend 16 CP to improve Polearm to 18, or they can spend 16 CP to improve Spear to 22, which also improves Staff to 20 and Polearm to 18. In many cases, it makes more sense just to focus on one skill when there are mutual defaults.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 01:37 PM   #5
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

So there is currently the kludge in GURPS Martial Arts: pay the point, get +2 Parry with a spear in two hands.

I think its fair to say that in a hypothetical GURPS 5e, they might blend the difference between Sword and Fencing and thee difference between Spear and Staff into a stylistic choice, one for styles which emphasize stretta guards with the weapon forward and one with more larga guards and the weapon refused. The first approach optimizes for thrusting and parrying, but is a bit slower or weaker to cut and puts the weapon out where it can be beaten, tangled, or grabbed (and exposes the weapon hand to probing attacks); the second approach keeps the weapon and weapon hand safe and is more balanced between thrusts and cuts, but at the disadvantage of having to move further (so a longer tempo) to parry.

Its a hard problem, because a brilliant light cavalryman ("as the horses pass at a gallop, you have one tempo or a tempo and a half. Use it wisely") will have trouble adapting to rapier play, but some styles teach both.

In the case of staff weapons, plenty of styles teach one and say that gives you the basics for all the others, others teach, oh say, lance and pollaxe. So treating Staff, Spear, and Polearm as such distinct skills which can't be used with the same weapon is harsh.

Real spears are often balanced towards the butt for extra reach, whereas staffs are usually the same thickness all along. If you have a spear, you have the deadliest weapon on the battlefield: no need to mess around with blows, just keep it flicking in and out like a snake's tongue biting at every opening. But without a sharp point, the blows of a staff are a great option too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
Compared to a staff, where you do a lot more swings than thrusts, you can pull back the tip to help parry an attack better, because you can then swing the other end back at your foe.
That was a classic debate back in the day (like most things in martial arts). There are still staff styles which are blow-heavy, and styles which emphasize the thrust. "If they get past your tip, reverse the weapon and give them the butt somewhere sensitive" is a classic trick from Fiore's lance play in 1410 to Richard Burton's bayonet exercise in 1853 or so Allanson-Winn's and Phillips-Wolley's Broad-Sword and Single-Stick in 1911.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature

Last edited by Polydamas; 01-17-2020 at 03:28 PM.
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 10:50 AM   #6
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
But looking at the various Weapon Tables for Staff, and the descriptions of the spear weapon, it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere that you can wield a spear with the Staff skill at all, let alone claim the parry bonus if you do.
The reason for that is normally you cant. That is the point of the perk, weapons can be used in different ways tend to get those entries on a weapon table.
Perks are there to allow a special privilege, like a minor rules exception or skill substitution.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 01:02 PM   #7
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
You use a spear by pointing it at your opponent, and thrusting at them when they get within range (sometimes you do a tip slash). If their attack passes your tip, then you use circular motions to parry, keeping the tip still pointed at your opponent (or at least in their direction). This does not give you a lot to parry with, and if you mess up you get hit.
Just like with Fencing weapons, which is why I've long argued that certain spear and polearm styles should have a Fencing variant of their skills.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 06:45 PM   #8
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics
 
roguebfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
The reason for that is normally you cant. That is the point of the perk, weapons can be used in different ways tend to get those entries on a weapon table.
Perks are there to allow a special privilege, like a minor rules exception or skill substitution.
Actually normally you can, but requires a Ready maneuver to do so, form mastery changes so it easier to make the transition easier.
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr
roguebfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2020, 06:54 PM   #9
Phoenix_Dragon
 
Phoenix_Dragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Close, but not quite. Normally you can choose what skill you're using a weapon with (From those skills that are valid for it) at the beginning of your turn. Form Mastery lets you change which skill you're using at any point in your turn, including multiple times in a turn. So you can start with using Staff skill, change to Spear skill to attack, then back to Staff skill so you're ready to parry.
Phoenix_Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 02:58 AM   #10
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: So what does Form Mastery (Spear) actually do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
Close, but not quite. Normally you can choose what skill you're using a weapon with (From those skills that are valid for it) at the beginning of your turn. Form Mastery lets you change which skill you're using at any point in your turn, including multiple times in a turn. So you can start with using Staff skill, change to Spear skill to attack, then back to Staff skill so you're ready to parry.
And its a little hard to understand why you can't thrust AT ALL when holding a Spear in Staff grip, thus the Form Mastery kludge (you can thrust with a blunt Baton and a sharp Large Knife using the same skill, so "one is sharp and penetrates, the other is blunt and smashes" does not wash, that should be a -2 Familiarity penalty). Again, a lot of things in GURPS go back to not-so-physical people in the 1980s asking their SCA buddies, and if they redesigned the rules today in a world where better knowledge about martial arts is widespread things might look different.
__________________
"It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper

This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature
Polydamas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.