Discussion on GURPS 4E Revised or Database

[JP42]

One of the counterarguments that always comes up is "I don't want to have to rely on technology" and I think it's a bit of a straw man. Just because you can go to the website and put together a custom campaign book with just the rules you want to use doesn't mean you'd have to. The original "all in one" version would still be available, and many of us who use the custom guides would still print them out and bind them ourselves.

More than anything, I would like to see a consolidation of every "official" rule, optional or not, together where they interact. Martial Arts interleaved appropriately into the Combat chapter; Powers in Advantages; Magic and Thaumatology (et al) into the Magic chapter; *-Tech into the Equipment and Campaigns chapters. This would likely lead to separate books for each chapter instead, but I'd be okay with that - and I wouldn't even demand a new distribution paradigm for it.

[munin]

Honestly, having searchable PDFs already comes pretty close to this for me, so I wouldn't want to buy a whole new system. A multi-pdf index would be useful though.

I have extra options because I have Adobe Acrobat. For example, I put Characters and Campaigns together into a single pdf, and whenever a new article about imbuements comes out in Pyramid, I add a copy of that article to my copy of PU1 so I've got them all together.

[DouglasCole]

My desire for this would be to be able to mouse over a page reference in any rulebook, and it go to an owned copy of the referenced work, and bring up in a box the rule in question.

[Propjock]

Originally Posted by munin

I'm a few years out of practice, but setting up a web server to serve this content wouldn't take even a small web company very long. They'd probably spend more time on appearance and user interface than on the database back-end, but then I was a database guy so I may be overestimating the difficulty of the other work based on how hard it would be for me. :)

Personally, I think everyone is underestimating how much work is involved. Maybe I'm not reading the OP intentions correctly, but it's a lot of work to organize all relevant GURPS materials, design the data model(s), create user interfaces, code, test (and test again), and create redundant server infrastructure capable of hosting in perpetuity the system. There's also security and ongoing system administration. You'll need coding, designers, QA, and probably at least one manager. I'm sure many of us can imagine how we'd build it as forum pontification, but the devil is in the details. Oh I didn't even mention the process of nailing down requirements. And there's all that product management needed to take something like this to market above and beyond the technical budget. Plus the game designers needed to do the editing. I'm sure the longer I sit here the more roles need to be involved.

I've done 13+ years of full stack development, but mostly have been focused on user interface design/dev over the last few years. You can get a lot of mileage with a web based interface with the libraries/frameworks available now. You can even plan for disconnected operation if the architecture is done right.

I would start by focusing on data modeling character generation, skills, advantages, disadvantages and having all that in place first as it's the core around which everything else is built. It also solves a large pain point for players. I'd have full PC character sheets with options for condensing for NPCs and Monsters.

Organizing the slew of one off look up tables is a less convenient task. I'd hate to think they'd all have to be modeled individually, but that's what it may come down to if the goal is to be able to get customization. I admit I don't have a good off-the-top-of-head plan for non-tabular rules. Would they just be stored as blocks of text? It also brings up the question of whether the [printed] output needs to have a sense of narrative to it or whether that would he handled more traditionally in a kind of GURPS lite supplement so that the system only has to worry about rules customization.

The most interesting problem in data modeling is the codification of the rules by campaign requirements. Even assuming you have all the various look up tables, skills, and rules stored, what is the process and expected results for a GM to come in and use this system? If you were to think about this as a form, what would be the form fields? Would they have to know about the GURPS universe of books or could they really start by identifying their campaign as "Modern horror, TL9, in space, with high tech gear" (say I want to do Colonial Space Marines). Being able to answer this question of how the user is expected to interact with the system and what results they can expect to get back is the heart of the matter. So far I'm not totally understanding it. Without this answer you have a lot of rules and some char gen utilities - useful, but not entirely what I think we're talking about.

Ugh. There's the transformation of all the data from the database(s) to printable stuff. The real way to do it is probably going to be DB->XML->XSLT->PDF. The faster way I'd do it would be to make a print.css and try and re-use the web based output for friendly-enough print output for the first pass. However, in the pit of my stomach I know that's a challenge since screen and print mechanics and layout are really 2 different worlds. For better or worse, I've never dealt much with print except for some typical corporate reporting. Ton of testing here if the focus is on getting high quality prints.

Then there's the user experience/interface. I'm biased, but I think a lot would ride on this if we even want to remotely shed the image that "GURPS is hard". Since it's a product that may not have ever been created before there'll be work in the designing. Then there's the execution. Even though modern browsers are getting a lot better, we've added mobile now, and even just keeping to desktops there's still cross-browser compatibility issues. This can all be beat down with time and effort and isn't strikingly hard with the right people involved. It is labour beyond coming up with a colour scheme and slapping some logos on.

I doubt any individual or even a small company could really whip this together in short order without real financials behind the project. But I'd use it if someone wants to prove me wrong!

OTOH, this would be an awesome open source project. :)

[JP42]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My desire for this would be to be able to mouse over a page reference in any rulebook, and it go to an owned copy of the referenced work, and bring up in a box the rule in question.

This is a good start, but what about references from older material to newer? There are no references, even where entirely appropriate, to Martial Arts in the Campaigns book - how could there be, after all - but that's where I'd want them. I'd want grappling to point me to your work. I'd want maneuvers to include references to Defensive Attacks. Perks to point to style perks. That sort of thing.

ETA: I never thought I'd be defending it, but this was the huge benefit of the online services associated with D&D 4E. You paid your monthly membership, you got access to the complete rules, including all updates, up to the minute in the character generator, monster/encounter generator and the like. I would want something like this for the actual game play rules in GURPS - where you constantly have access to the latest and greatest from the entire universe of GURPS rules. But I'm not sure such a thing could survive, not with the third party writer model that SJG relies upon.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by JP42

This is a good start, but what about references from older material to newer? There are no references, even where entirely appropriate, to Martial Arts in the Campaigns book - how could there be, after all - but that's where I'd want them. I'd want grappling to point me to your work. I'd want maneuvers to include references to Defensive Attacks. Perks to point to style perks. That sort of thing.

That's a tough one, but would be doable with a revenue stream like the one you have below. I wonder if you could simply (?) download a "references file," like updating your virus scan definitions, which would then insert the proper references into all the books you have.

ETA: I never thought I'd be defending it, but this was the huge benefit of the online services associated with D&D 4E. You paid your monthly membership, you got access to the complete rules, including all updates, up to the minute in the character generator, monster/encounter generator and the like. I would want something like this for the actual game play rules in GURPS - where you constantly have access to the latest and greatest from the entire universe of GURPS rules. But I'm not sure such a thing could survive, not with the third party writer model that SJG relies upon.

I don't know. The key would obviously be "system line earns enough revenue to support someone's time to do the updates." As long as the long tail and extra supplements keep the cash cow milking or growing, it's a net win for the company.

[Kuroshima]

Personally, this is something I've though about a lot. I do have my preferred solution, and it's a Tiddlywiki, that is, a wiki that lives in a single HTML file, and loads in all standards conforming browsers. It even has mechanisms user generated content and for importing content from other Tiddlywikis.

The nice thing is that it's like a non-linear notebook. I personally feel that such a structure is ideal for ongoing reading of technical works (maybe not for the initial read, but for sure for making sure you find item XYX fast and in a rational way).

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Personally, this is something I've though about a lot. I do have my preferred solution, and it's a Tiddlywiki, that is, a wiki that lives in a single HTML file, and loads in all standards conforming browsers. It even has mechanisms user generated content and for importing content from other Tiddlywikis.

The nice thing is that it's like a non-linear notebook. I personally feel that such a structure is ideal for ongoing reading of technical works (maybe not for the initial read, but for sure for making sure you find item XYX fast and in a rational way).

I have no experience with Tiddlywiki at all, but do greatly admire the work done on the Fate SRD (http://fate-srd.com) under Drupal. That's a brilliant bit of site configuration to allow for a really user-friendly reading experience with some limited interactivity.

[Raekai]

The GURPS Database opens with the modules that the User has installed. There is a rich filter system that allows the User to filter through the modules using tags. Some examples of the tags would be advantages, disadvantages, combat, equipment, and book names. Furthermore, the tags could go much more in depth; the equipment filter could be split up into melee and ranged, and even further into swords, spears, axes, and the like. So, the opening of the Database would lead to the main modules page which would show the various books that the User has installed. They could just be listed by name, but the User could just drag them around into the order that the User would like them to be in. Clicking on a book module will open up a grid of modules in the order that they appear in the PDF for said book. On the left or right side of the Database, there is a tab that opens up an empty pane where modules can be dragged and dropped into order in the two-column setup of the standard format. There are also rich formatting tools for being able to set the modules up like a full PDF with chapters, an index, an appendix, and the like. After being set up, the User can save the file as a PDF. There is also a system to create custom modules from format templates for advantages, rules, equipment, creatures, tables, and the like. This system would not require it to be always-online. The books and modules could be downloaded from an online database or the modules could be included with the PDFs, or there could be a way to convert the PDFs into modules (which would make the initial work of creating the database of files significantly easier). For a free program (forum-maintained), it would either have to convert PDFs or it would only contain a way to create custom modules. From there, the PDF could easily be printed off for a phsycial copy. Then another complex idea comes into play, the idea of being able to find and update and replace modules. As an example, let us say that the speed/range table had to be revised, and it was, but it was tucked away in some Pyramid article. The speed/range table module would show all of the books that it is listed in as well as the books where it has received an upgrade. Another example would be the grappling rules. The grappling rules module from the Basic Set could show that it was expanded on in Martial Arts as well as Technical Grappling. This would allow old references to be linked with newer ones.

Adding all of this may seem extremely redundant, but it's all about organization and presentation. I like to be super organized and not have to flip through various books or search through a bunch of PDFs to find that one single rule from that one PDF that I hardly ever use. It could allow me to create rulebooks and templates for personal campaigns. It could help me find things that I would like to see in articles or books that have those rules hidden away. No, I don't exactly know how to go about this. No, I don't know if SJGames would go for this. But, yes, I have a strong feeling that this could pioneer GURPS into a new era. Like I said before, if I had the time and the resources and the skills to do this myself, then I would. Maybe I will spend some more time learning how to code, but I already have my GURPS Magic to GURPS RPM Conversion to be working on (I've been so lazy).

Hopefully someone will pick this idea up and run with it! I'm not even a good artist so this is the best that I can explain my thoughts!

Thanks.

EDIT: Also, to address another issue, it could just be for PC/Mac. It's probably well enough that you can export PDFs which can be viewed on other platforms.

[Refplace]

I think the only reasonable option at this time is essentially a database driven index. Rather then include the rules, traits, monsters and what not it just lists the titles, rule names, costs and a few basic things you can find in the free PDFs they already make available.
Also a UI form for adding House rules and such, as well as flagging campagn specific items to filter things.

This I think fits within the SJG guidelines and might get permission to publish. A content inclusive item however would not and would require some major overhead and liscening discussions.
Of course making the index is about as much work as making it so it includes contact :( The advantage there though is it gets you a working model if the company decides to go that route at some future time.
However would enough people be interested in that to justify it?