[Low-Tech] Smallsword with the Bronze Age 'Rapier?'

[sir_pudding]

Summer and Autumn period jian were bronze, some with the triangular narrow guards of later jian, and presumably could be used with Rapier, like other jian. So if you really want a historical sword that's bronze and uses GURPS fencing skills, there seems to be one.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Everything about the design of these "rapiers" suggests that they were mostly used to thrust. The tang doesn't look long enough to be the basis for a good swinging grip and there doesn't appear to be a good place to attach a pommel, which is necessary for a good swinging sword. (If you thrust, your hand will want to ride up on the blade. If you swing, the sword will want to fly forward or outward, so you need a good pommel or equivalent to help keep it in hand. The pommel also acts as a counterweight allowing you to recover from your strike more quickly.)

While I agree these were most likely thrusting weapons (I mean, that's probably a big part of why they're referred to as "rapiers"), it's not like a tangless weapon can't have something on the hilt to prevent hand slippage during a swing - it would just be part of the hilt (which, of course, didn't survive), rather than an attachment to the tang. Indeed, the seals linked by Dan (which are interesting in how they each depict the victor using basically the same technique to get around his foe's shield and stab his neck) show these weapons as having sizable pommels.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Looking at the Lindybeige video, I'd suggest that the "Celtic Rapier" the presenter shows first is a Bronze Long Knife. The Long Rapier presented second is either a Bronze Shortsword or my proposed Mycenaean Rapier. The "dirk" is a Large Stiletto (or Large Knife if it's edged).

The only problem is that weights given are way below typical GURPS weapon weights. The Long Knife length rapier comes in a ~3/4 lb., while the long version comes in at 1.25 lbs. Lengths are otherwise appropriate for the proposed weapon types.

Reduced weight fits well with reduced Swing damage, and would justify minimum ST 8-9 for the long version but increased risk of breakage.

To be fair, all GURPS Low-Tech weapons weight more than their real counterparts. This is especially true for weapons falling into the Axe/Maxe, Two-Handed Axe/Mace and Polearm categories, with some listed weapons that are up 50% heavier than their real counterparts.

That's one of the reasons why I use the conversion 1 lb. = 0.4 kg in my campaigns instead of 1 lb. = 0.5 kg or 1 lb. = 0,45 kg for equipment weight. The other reason is that pretty much nobody outside U.S.A. and Commonwealth likes to use the Imperial System.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

While I agree these were most likely thrusting weapons (I mean, that's probably a big part of why they're referred to as "rapiers"),

The "rapier" thing is mostly a Victorianism.

Even more common than calling all thrusting swords "rapiers" was calling all curved swords "sabers". It's why the Chinese word "dao" (which is literally "knife" or by extension "single-edged blade") is translated as "saber" when it's part of a compound name for swords even when they're 5 feet long ("zhanmadao"). <shrug>"Horse beheading knife" would be odd too.

The Victorians were first in organized (if not terribly scientific) study of arms and armor and they've left us a terminology but it shouldn't be taken literally.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

While a 16-19th century style bell handguard is technically possible, it's obvious that the makers of these weapons liked their decorated hilts. The majority of examples you've shown either have gold hilts or gold rivets for attaching a similarly-shaped hilts made from other materials. If a bell hand guard existed there would be rivets or other precious metal fragments to indicate its presence.

OK, but what parts of 'fairly cinematic' or 'We have no evidence of this' (and even some evidence against it mentioned in my post) leads you to think that you need to beat me over the head with something that I already know - that while physically possible to have made, it probably never existed?

If you hate the thought of it existing even in a more cinematic game, just say that.

EDIT: That might not be your intention, but that's how it looks from here. That or you both heavily misread my intentions.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Rasna

The other reason is that pretty much nobody outside U.S.A. and Commonwealth likes to use the Imperial System.

It is just the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar now. All Commonwealth countries are metric. The main holdouts in other countries are people who were educated before the 1970s.

[sir_pudding]

Basically nobody uses the Imperial System, which technically is no longer maintained and doesn't exist anymore.
The US uses US Customary, which is why e.g. the gallon is smaller. It's an even older and dumber system than Imperial.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

OK, but what parts of 'fairly cinematic' or 'We have no evidence of this' (and even some evidence against it mentioned in my post) leads you to think that you need to beat me over the head with something that I already know - that while physically possible to have made, it probably never existed?

I don't think I've seen what you describe in a movie, either.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

It is just the USA, Liberia, and Myanmar now. All Commonwealth countries are metric. The main holdouts in other countries are people who were educated before the 1970s.

I'm not seeing young people who measure distances in either kilometers or millimeters. Or weights in grams etc.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

EDIT: That might not be your intention, but that's how it looks from here. That or you both heavily misread my intentions.

Peace! No hostile intention intended. I got wrapped up in my own obsessive little research tangent, went into full hoplology geek mode, and forgot my netiquette. My apologies, and thanks for bringing these "rapiers" to my attention.

I accept that cinematic and fantasy weapons can defy the laws of physics and common sense and always love plausible new fantasy weapons that aren't in the "oversized with lots of extra spikes" family.

My metalworking experience suggests that it wouldn't be that hard to create a bell-guard rapier in bronze. The hand guard would could easily be added as an extra piece, possibly with an integral stiffener which extends from the guard.

If you alter ancient society to create the social conditions where the rapier became common (a light sword which could be worn with civilian clothing) then there's no reason why Bronze Age Rapiers couldn't have been used with fencing technique.

Given what we know about Celtic costume and armor, it's possible that "Celtic Rapiers" could have been used with a fencing stance, possibly with a buckler or cloak to protect the off hand. Just substitute wool plaid for silk velvet and Cornish bronze for Milanese steel. GURPS Swashbucklers + Celtic Myth actually sounds like a lot of fun.